Hirohito was suffered from Bi-polar. I don't think you should be reading freud when you need to read Halberstam. But in you cmmunity college flophouse, I am sure required reading goes along with competence.
I’m sure the Reverend Jackson would be warmed to learn that his theories of democracy have been embraced so tightly by people such as CM. This, at a time where he has lost so many colors of his rainbow coalition due to his own (shall we say) moral indiscretions.
That democracy has over a 200 year legacy in America is too obvious to seriously debate. One is certainly free to debate whether that democracy always exercised its voice in ways that we deem civilized today or embraced change in accordance with the timeline some would have preferred.
If I am not mistaken, the right to vote was limited to landowners at our country’s formation under the belief that only landowners had a sufficient stake to warrant having a voice in government. The beauty of the American experiment in democracy is that it has followed a consistent trend of becoming more and more inclusive rather than more and more exclusive. First, the right to participate was extended to non-landowners, then to black men, then to women, then to a younger group of citizens. The fascinating part of this extension of the right to participate is that it was freely and voluntarily given by those who previously had the monopoly. In other words, the people voting in favor of the extensions were simultaneously giving up a portion of their own power and influence to a group that previously lacked power and influence. All done peaceably and all done pursuant to democratic principles.
This whole process is substantially different than the experiences in most of the rest of the world where blocks of people try to consolidate power and influence and exclude others from the process to do so.
Frankly, I think that Rev. Jackson and people like him are more frustrated by their inability to convert minority voting blocks into power brokers than anything else. So they claim the system isn’t including them rather than pointing the blame at themselves for failing to figure out how to influence the system to maximum benefit. The way to gain the most in our electoral system is to make all parties and all candidates know that your vote is up for grabs. Make them compete for your vote. For decades, the “black vote” has been taken for granted by the Democrats and more or less ignored by the Republicans because everyone knew that Democrats would get 90% of it. The Dems don’t have to DO anything to get the black vote. The best thing that black Americans can do for themselves is to disengage from the Democratic Party and make it be known that they now constitute a more independent swing vote that will cast their ballot with the person and party that will DO the most for them.
You seem to be fairly well read, Mr. Chaltahai, but CM's comment regarding Japanese acessment of US fighting will and capabilty is correct, except for the opinion of the Japanese officer in charge of the Pearl Harbor attack. He went to school in the US and toured here as well. Yamamoto knew us better than his peers, who were blinded by their own culture. The US view of the Japanese was equally wrong and bigotted. US propaganda put forth the buck toothed, bespectacled, scrawny Jap soldier. We soon found out the truth in actual combat.
CM, I'd be interested to know more about the charges of Switzerland being a police state. Is the date of 1989 for womens sufferage accurate?
The US Jim Crow laws were put into place after a short time of legislated rights given to southern blacks. The correct course of the US was reversed in the 1800's. Much "Yankee" injustice was metered out to the "Rebels". Control of outcome may have been conspiratorial. Dig deep enough and you will find "where the bodies are buried".
Re: US democracy only 37 years old.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Well with institutional racism and the subjugation of the African american, the US can not claim that it has been a democracy for 200 years. Rather it has been a democracy for only 37 years. Of course the issue of women and concentration camps in the US is not mentioned really. The Japanese concentration camps, the murder of Americans with german names, and the witch hunts are rarely mentioned. This all as a back drop to the racist policies of the state. Then of course there is the red scare, which was not the sign of a democractic institution at all. Rather of a xenophobic and totalitarian state.
After this now we have the attacks on muslims and the racial profiling of muslims in all walks of life. I must say for a country with a democracy the us is doing pretty pathetically. But for a 37 year old democracy, it is good. Sadly the period before 1965 compares to Saudi and the Taliban rule in Afghanistan.
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NEWS FLASH! The slavery of Africans was first practiced by the Africans themselves, enslaving those they defeated in battle. African slaves were sold to the Europeans by both Africans and Arabs, both of which groups practiced and encouraged slavery. Slavery of Africans in the US represents only a fraction of slavery's history when compared with the centuries it was practiced by African and Arab nations. Both Africans and Arabs seem quite willing to ignore this! I understand it's still practiced in remote areas of Africa and the Middle East.
America's Founding Fathers had heated debates on both democracy and slavery during early congresses prior to the union of the colonies. The acceptance of slavery by the North was the ONLY way the South would join the Union in the effort to defeat England.
We've had this "1965" argunment before, CM! The Revisionist history I often see promoted on these boards is incredible!
Peace To All Who Read This...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Seminole: You are wrong once again. The perfect society was in Arabia in the 700's. We are all hoping to revert back to those days. When the camels also had a right to vote.
There is no other system or country in the world that gives importance and rights to the individual than the USA. It is an ever evolving marvel that allows the individual citizens to make the most of his/her talents. No other country in the world offers such opportunities. That's why US embassies are packed in the muslim world with people looking to emigrate.
The simple reason is that no where in the world happiness of the individual is guaranteed in the constitution. This is a very important thing. Becuase for each individual happiness comes in different forms. And the US constitution prescribes each individual the right to "life..liberty and the Pursuit of happiness". A fantastic and visionary statement that keeps the people flocking to these shores.
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At least in these times there was some sort of justice and equality of which the Americans can only dream from the years +1800!
You need more than just brains to create the perfect murder!
Re: Re: US democracy only 37 years old.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mrpockets: *
NEWS FLASH! The slavery of Africans was first practiced by the Africans themselves, enslaving those they defeated in battle. African slaves were sold to the Europeans by both Africans and Arabs, both of which groups practiced and encouraged slavery. Slavery of Africans in the US represents only a fraction of slavery's history when compared with the centuries it was practiced by African and Arab nations. Both Africans and Arabs seem quite willing to ignore this! I understand it's still practiced in remote areas of Africa and the Middle East.
America's Founding Fathers had heated debates on both democracy and slavery during early congresses prior to the union of the colonies. The acceptance of slavery by the North was the ONLY way the South would join the Union in the effort to defeat England.
We've had this "1965" argunment before, CM! The Revisionist history I often see promoted on these boards is incredible!
Peace To All Who Read This...
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Don't forget the Romans!
And then ask the "blacks" who they hate more: The Africans, the Arabs or the "white" Americans, who........we all know history don't we?!
Re: Re: US democracy only 37 years old.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mrpockets: *
America's Founding Fathers had heated debates on both democracy and slavery during early congresses prior to the union of the colonies. The acceptance of slavery by the North was the ONLY way the South would join the Union in the effort to defeat England.
[/QUOTE]
So basically the Founding Fathers accepted that the 1/8 of the American population that was black was not equal to whites? Until 1863 these many millions remained slaves and were not even citizens of the USA. Is that not true? Even when they were emancpiated in 1863 they were deprived of voting and segregated agaisnt in all waks of life for another 100 years. Were they not? Thats not democracy for all, thats a white man's democracy, and at the expense of blacks. The USA only became a full functioning democracy after the passing of the 'Civil Rights Act', and until then was a semi-apatheid state like South Africa was until the early 1990's.
Malik: Democracy is never perfect but its strive towards perfection is. During the times when slaves were brought into the western world, slavery was an accepted form of labor across the world. In Africa, Europe, Arabia, S.E. ASia etc but a democratic nation state was not. The challenge for the founding fathers was to form a nation first along democratic guidelines, prepare a constitution that allows for evolution of democracy. This is what they did in a superb fashion. AS many have mentioned on this thread before America has been ever evolving. Banging the same drum over and over does not take away from the fact that in 200 yrs America has achieved what great civilizations including Islamic could not with a lot longer legacy. This is to be celebrated.
How we view race relations now is completely different that how we viewed them 20, 50, or 150 years ago. How we view religion also follows the same mantra. Change comes due to popular will and timing coinciding and is never permanent. In 37 years as you guys say, Americans of African descent have the highest percapita income than their counterparts in any part of the world. Blacks in America are moving up the socio-economic ladder faster than any other group in the country. Sure there are problems. But even in the african american community, the issue of race is being brushed aside and superceded by will and capabilities.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Malik: Democracy is never perfect but its strive towards perfection is. During the times when slaves were brought into the western world, slavery was an accepted form of labor across the world. In Africa, Europe, Arabia, S.E. ASia etc but a democratic nation state was not. The challenge for the founding fathers was to form a nation first along democratic guidelines, prepare a constitution that allows for evolution of democracy. This is what they did in a superb fashion. AS many have mentioned on this thread before America has been ever evolving. Banging the same drum over and over does not take away from the fact that in 200 yrs America has achieved what great civilizations including Islamic could not with a lot longer legacy. This is to be celebrated.
How we view race relations now is completely different that how we viewed them 20, 50, or 150 years ago. How we view religion also follows the same mantra. Change comes due to popular will and timing coinciding and is never permanent. In 37 years as you guys say, Americans of African descent have the highest percapita income than their counterparts in any part of the world. Blacks in America are moving up the socio-economic ladder faster than any other group in the country. Sure there are problems. But even in the african american community, the issue of race is being brushed aside and superceded by will and capabilities.
[/QUOTE]
If mass murder and totally exstinguishing of human race and different tribes makes you proud. Then be it!
If this is what you call improvement then hail to you and your idealogy!
Ali: No one has ever said that that is proud legacy of the US. But why this venom only at the US? I don't see any thrads against the Aussies or the Kiwis. They did the exact same thing. OR how about the chinese in tibet or the various african tribes or the Belgians in the congo. The japanese in Nanking or philipines. Please be consistent.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Ali: No one has ever said that that is proud legacy of the US. But why this venom only at the US? I don't see any thrads against the Aussies or the Kiwis. They did the exact same thing. OR how about the chinese in tibet or the various african tribes or the Belgians in the congo. The japanese in Nanking or philipines. Please be consistent.
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Chaltahai, you should revise history and you might know that what the chinese did in tibet and the african are doing in africa or the belgiums did in congo have had their time frames.
Secondly these countries are no favour to me either, but the main point is as you already mentioned above.
WHO WAS THE MOST SUCCESSFULL with HIS plans? The Aussies, the Belgs, the AFRICANS, the chinese, the Kiwis?!?
OR MAYBE THE BRITS?
AS I said, timing and popular mark changes in democracies. US even now is not perfect and maybe it never will be. But it is the clear leader in providing opportunities for its citizens and immigrants like no other country in the world. Look at the number of visa applications to the US compared to any other country in the world. If US is so bad, why come here?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
AS I said, timing and popular mark changes in democracies. US even now is not perfect and maybe it never will be. But it is the clear leader in providing opportunities for its citizens and immigrants like no other country in the world. Look at the number of visa applications to the US compared to any other country in the world. If US is so bad, why come here?
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If you turn on the pc and surf along you will still see lots of adds and even whole application forms for US VISAs online available. On some television text sources of channels you can even WIN GREEN CARDS.
Even after 911!
If they say they aren't perfect why that much pride? Such patriotism which is even worse than german racism and why then talk about a free world if that land of the opportunties is as much censored as any other country by men in blacks??
The new washington drama. Have you heard of it? Did you read the whole story? This guy says he his GOD....you may guess which religion he belongs too. Have you heard any news paper saying:
Extremist Christian going Insane?? And then we have this boring religious bak bak....but why?
Where are the free minded NY journalist who would love to see a peace and equality?! What happened to laws of freedom of press/speach?
Is everyone suddenly afraid of it or of THEM?
See so many questions no answer.
I can't blame myself of this all when my country does step into shoes of US since we still have a military state. It's easier to find an excuse for me.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
*....
I would like to know from all those who criticize the US democracy, if they have a better example? Especially all those British guppies who don't miss any band wagon to criticize the US. How about starting a thread about the balanced, neutral, un biased approach of the British government & its involvement around the world? Would that be a good way to show the Americans where they stand?
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I don't know how many other countries in the world are playing/claiming/behaving/attempting at "The Super Power", "The Only Super Power" role. Is Britain trying to prove that it is the "sole" Super Power? or is it France? or Bengladesh?
Why waste time on someone who isn't "dictating" (or at least trying to) world politics?
Benjamin Franklin on slavery:
Franklin returned to Philadelphia (from France) in 1785. Two years later, he became a member of the Constitutional Convention. Franklin was bedridden during the final year of his life and died on April 17, 1790. As one of his final public acts, he signed a petition to the U.S. Congress urging the abolition of slavery, just two months before his death.
The abolitionist movement in colonial America was fairly limited and considered quite radical. By the mid-1770s, a number of abolitionist organizations had begun to form.
After Franklin returned from France in 1785, he joined and eventually became president of an abolitionist group founded a decade earlier by the Pennsylvania Quakers. The group was called the Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery and the Relief of Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage. Franklin was convinced that not only the slave trade, but slavery itself should be eliminated. He eventually freed his own two slaves.
Franklin recognized that freed slaves could not fend for themselves without help, so he advanced the idea that slaves needed to be educated in order to become contributing members of a free society. In his position of president of the abolitionist society, Franklin wrote and published an “Address to the Public,” in which he addressed the education of former slaves. The plan was to “instruct, to advise, to qualify those who have been restored to freedom, for the exercise and enjoyment of civil liberty; to promote in them habits of industry, to furnish them with employment suited to their age, sex, talents, and other circumstances. . . which we conceive will essentially promote the public good, and the happiness of these hitherto much neglected fellow-creatures.”
And, George Wahington:
Although George Washington was born into a world where slavery was accepted, his attitude changed as he grew older. During the Revolution, as he and fellow patriots strove for liberty, Washington became increasingly conscious of the contradiction between this struggle and the system of slavery. By the time of his presidency, Washington seems to have believed that slavery was wrong and against the principles of the new nation.
Washington did not lead a public fight against slavery as president, however, because he believed it would tear the new nation apart. Abolition had many opponents, especially in the southern states. Washington seems to have feared that if he, as president, took such a public stand, those southern states would withdraw from the United States (something they would do seventy years later, leading to the Civil War). He had worked too hard to build the country to risk tearing it apart.
Privately, Washington could lead by example. In his will, George Washington made arrangements for all the slaves he owned to be freed after his death (123 of the 316 slaves living at Mount Vernon belonged to George Washington). He also left instructions for the continued care and education of some of his former slaves, provided support and training for young people until they came of age, and supported the elderly.
And, let’s not forget notorious slavewoner of note, Thomas Jefferson"
Although both Jefferson and Washington were lifelong slaveholders, as were the previous generations of Washingtons in Virginia, the master of Mount Vernon has scarcely received a fraction of the criticism on the subject that has fallen on Jefferson since the 1960s. Jefferson spoke eloquently on the evils of the peculiar institution, especially in his Notes on the State of Virginia, his only book. Washington said less about slavery, and what he said was expressed privately. There is no reason to think that either man thought that Africans, if free and given opportunities to advance, could have become the intellectual equals of whites. At least a handful of American saw that as a possibility, including Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin.
http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/articles/slavery/index.html
- To a Friend in France.
What a stupendous, what an incomprehensible machine is man! who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment, and death itself, in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment be deaf to all those motives whose power supported him through his trial, and inflict on his fellow-men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose. But we must await, with patience, the workings of an overruling Providence, and hope that that is preparing the deliverance of those our suffering brethren. When the measure of their tears shall be full, when their groans shall have involved heaven itself in darkness, doubtless a God of Justice will awaken to their distress, and, by diffusing light and liberality among their oppressors, or at length by his exterminating thunder, manifest his attention to the things of this world, and that they are not left to the guidance of a blind fatality.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slave05.htm
Peace To All Who Read This…
Ya'll don't get it....
Democracy is not a static thing. It is by nature a dynamic and moving process. I don't know a single American who would say that we live in a perfect world. As humans we have flaws and our society reflects the state of our humanity.
The miracle of democracy is that eventually change can be effected. Women can be given the right to vote, slaves can be freed, and segregation can end. Those are failures of humans and triumphs of the process. The balance between Media, Congress, Judiciary, and the people is a delicate one. I had the good luck to live in Detroit during the race riots. My parents moved to Chicago where there were riots during the '68 democratic national convention, protesting the Vietnam War. And then I attended Kent State where there were riots and they shot kids.
The miracle of Democracy is not that it is always right, but like a listing ship, it eventually rights it self even in the roughest of seas. The confidence that Americans have is that EVENTUALLY right will prevail, and that the inherent balance in the system will rebel against evil behavior that may creep into the system. It is not perfect, it is workable. Every one of the shameful occurances that you cite is also followed by a correction.
Please name the countries that have had more than 200 years of peaceful succesion of political power. Please give us examples of very diverse populations where democracy works, not Japan or Sweden where there are very homogeneous populations.
What do I hate about democracy? I want to be able to say our pledge of Allegence and include, "one nation under God". but I understand that our country is founded on the separation of Church and State, and that the protection of religious freedoms begins by insuring that we are ever vigilent to creeping forms of institutionalizing religion. I hate abortions, but I respect the court process which allows them. I hate seeing flags burned, but I respect the freedom of peaceful protest. I hate the media hype, but I love the way that the media ripped into Clinton, and we almost impeached a President for diddling an intern, and the media had a field day crucifying Clinton.
So don't give me your lame theory that the US has only been a democracy for 37 years. You can point any number of social occurances and choose to start the democracy clock ticking. In actuality, democracy really exists in the hearts and minds of it's citizens and institutions. Ask any American if they beleive they are living in a Democracy, and virtually all will agree with vigor. Every one of them would spout to you all of the "freedoms" which they expect. And to the bone they believe it.
So lets not confuse democracy with acceptable social mores of the time. Democracy is simply a set of beliefs held by fallable humans. It is a system and a process by which people can better society if they so choose. By dwelling on a littany of self defined failures, you fail to recognize the success lies in the process by which a society rights itself....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The miracle of democracy is that eventually change can be effected. Women can be given the right to vote, slaves can be freed, and segregation can end.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, the same happened in South Africa don't you think? Do you think it was a "evolving democracy" when there was segregation against blacks there?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
So lets not confuse democracy with acceptable social mores of the time. Democracy is simply a set of beliefs held by fallable humans. It is a system and a process by which people can better society if they so choose. By dwelling on a littany of self defined failures, you fail to recognize the success lies in the process by which a society rights itself....
[/QUOTE]
An eloquent and reasoned reply to an immature and uninformed premise. You should read it a few times, CM. There is real truth here. It's not merely a "gotcha".
You can learn from what Ohioguy has written. Please feel free to take your shots at the U.S. Try harder though and take us to task on something after having thought it through a bit. Impress with reason and intellect, not bluster.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
An eloquent and reasoned reply to an immature and uninformed premise. You should read it a few times, CM. There is real truth here. It's not merely a "gotcha".
You can learn from what Ohioguy has written. Please feel free to take your shots at the U.S. Try harder though and take us to task on something after having thought it through a bit. Impress with reason and intellect, not bluster.
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Yes Ohioguy nicley justified how an apartheid state is just an "evolving democracy", like South Africa?
Where did he or anyone other than you refer to South Africa? If South Africa's history is so upsetting to you, let 'em have it and start a couple of threads about it.