Urdu is a complex language

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@Southie

My pet peeve is

Aap bolo
Aap karo

Grammatically incorrect.

Aap boliye
Aap keejiye

Is Queen’s Hindi or Urdu

PS. How the heck does anyone read Urdu? Seems tougher than Chinese, Japanese and Korean combined.

Its King’s Urdu. We are a patriarch society

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

Yes, I would agree it is quite difficult. Specially since the shapes of individual characters change depending on their position in a word (beginning, middle or end). Also, the alphabet is quite large, having added letters from Arabic, Persian and Hindi phonetics.

hamari himmat ko salam karo saheb, jo Sindhi ke char char nuqton wale haroof likhte / paRhte hain

[kakaballi]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

hamari himmat ko salam karo saheb, jo Sindhi ke char char nuqton wale haroof likhte / paRhte hain

It is true. At least you don't have to learn Punjabi in schools in Punjab. I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

It is true. At least you don't have to learn Punjabi in schools in Punjab. I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

Its a good thing all way. My personal experience say so. If you know your language, you can learn other languages with ease.

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

It is true. At least you don't have to learn Punjabi in schools in Punjab. I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

one question to you Kaka, hope you'll be able to answer. i've asked several people this question but never got an good answer:

to be counted as a language, it has to have it's own vocabulary, it's own script and it's own literature.
**
if that's the definition of a language then why Punjabis did NOT adopt it's script? why do they use Urdu script in which certain Punjabi letter sounds aren't available? why didn't they adopt the Gurmukhi script which is widely used by Punjabis in India?**

thank you! :)

[kakaballi]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@KKF

…

to be counted as a language, it has to have it’s own vocabulary, it’s own script and it’s own literature.

Not necessarily. Script is just written expression of vocabulary. One language can be written in several scripts.
**

@KKF

if that’s the definition of a language then why Punjabis did NOT adopt it’s script? why do they use Urdu script in which certain Punjabi letter sounds aren’t available? why didn’t they adopt the Gurmukhi script which is widely used by Punjabis in India?

**

I suppose it has to do with Sufi influence in the language in parts of Punjab that are now in Pakistan. Also Muslims think of Arabic script as more ‘Muslim’. The script we use is not ‘Urdu’. It is a modified form of Arabic script.One can argue that since Hindi and Urdu are very similar languages, Urdu can be written in Devanagari script and Hindi can be written in ‘Urdu’ (Arabic) script.

Unfortunately, Punjabi as a language is not promoted anyways in Pakistan. We (in Punjab) do not learn it in schools, while people from other provinces learn their languages in school. We do not have an option to take examinations in Punjabi language and have to learn Urdu for that. Punjabi is not used as official language for documentation etc. You will very rarely see Punjabi hoardings, banners, advertisements etc. in central or Northern Punjab. “Modern” parents in Punjab prefer to talk to their kids in Urdu rather than Punjabi (although they talk to each other or their friends in Punjabi). If you want to depict someone uncivilized or ‘backward’ in a TV program, that character would use Punjabi language or accent.

In short, the language is somehow looked down upon in its own province. The question of script would be important if the language was widely used as a written one, rather than only a spoken language.

To be honest, I tried reading Bulleh Shah in Punjabi. Failed.

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@kakaballi

Not necessarily. Script is just written expression of vocabulary. One language can be written in several scripts.

I suppose it has to do with Sufi influence in the language in parts of Punjab that are now in Pakistan. Also Muslims think of Arabic script as more ‘Muslim’. The script we use is not ‘Urdu’. It is a modified form of Arabic script.One can argue that since Hindi and Urdu are very similar languages, Urdu can be written in Devanagari script and Hindi can be written in ‘Urdu’ (Arabic) script.

Unfortunately, Punjabi as a language is not promoted anyways in Pakistan. We (in Punjab) do not learn it in schools, while people from other provinces learn their languages in school. We do not have an option to take examinations in Punjabi language and have to learn Urdu for that. Punjabi is not used as official language for documentation etc. You will very rarely see Punjabi hoardings, banners, advertisements etc. in central or Northern Punjab. “Modern” parents in Punjab prefer to talk to their kids in Urdu rather than Punjabi (although they talk to each other or their friends in Punjabi). If you want to depict someone uncivilized or ‘backward’ in a TV program, that character would use Punjabi language or accent.

In short, the language is somehow looked down upon in its own province. The question of script would be important if the language was widely used as a written one, rather than only a spoken language.

To be honest, I tried reading Bulleh Shah in Punjabi. Failed.

thanks for your detailed reply. it has indeed helped me a lot in understanding the reasons.

i still have questions but i won’t ask them here because i do not wish to derail this thread. i think i’ll open a thread soon to discuss it further.

thank you

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@kakaballi

Not necessarily. Script is just written expression of vocabulary. One language can be written in several scripts.

I suppose it has to do with Sufi influence in the language in parts of Punjab that are now in Pakistan. Also Muslims think of Arabic script as more ‘Muslim’. The script we use is not ‘Urdu’. It is a modified form of Arabic script.One can argue that since Hindi and Urdu are very similar languages, Urdu can be written in Devanagari script and Hindi can be written in ‘Urdu’ (Arabic) script.

Unfortunately, Punjabi as a language is not promoted anyways in Pakistan. We (in Punjab) do not learn it in schools, while people from other provinces learn their languages in school. We do not have an option to take examinations in Punjabi language and have to learn Urdu for that. Punjabi is not used as official language for documentation etc. You will very rarely see Punjabi hoardings, banners, advertisements etc. in central or Northern Punjab. “Modern” parents in Punjab prefer to talk to their kids in Urdu rather than Punjabi (although they talk to each other or their friends in Punjabi). If you want to depict someone uncivilized or ‘backward’ in a TV program, that character would use Punjabi language or accent.

In short, the language is somehow looked down upon in its own province. The question of script would be important if the language was widely used as a written one, rather than only a spoken language.

To be honest, I tried reading Bulleh Shah in Punjabi. Failed.

Whats your mother tongue kaka?

[kakaballi]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

Whats your mother tongue kaka?

Supposed to be Punjabi, but I cannot (like many others who grew up in 80s and later) speak it properly.

[the_kaur]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

it has been a hot topic in India because Maulana Azad Library of AligaRh Muslim University has been closed for female students because male students flock there not to study but to harass the female students.

to stop this nonsense, the vice chancellor of AMU who is a retired army colonel [he is the brother of Bollywood veteran actor Nasiruddin Shah] banned the female students to come to the main library to avoid such scenes from happening. this harassment of female students by male students has been a huge problem. the police can NOT enter the campus unless called by the university administration. they don't call police because the students become irate when they see police on the campus.

female undergrad students have their own college and library. the female graduate and professional course students have NOT been allowed ever since the university came into existence after sunset. the main and the department seminar libraries have been issuing text books to female students from 5 pm to 8 am the next day. this has been a the tradition for a long long time.

i think it has nothing to do with gender discrimination but rather everything to do with administrative policies. it's NOT safe for girls to go to library after dark anyways.

i think what they must do is to create a women ONLY section within the library.

That is tragic, we Indians, want our daughters not to get eve teased rather than teaching our sons not to eve tease :)

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

That is tragic, we Indians, want our daughters not to get eve teased rather than teaching our sons not to eve tease :)

nothing surprising in a society where ladies are preached for compromise at every stage. remember 'doli main ja rahi ho, arthi pe nikalna' type advice.

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

That is tragic, we Indians, want our daughters not to get eve teased rather than teaching our sons not to eve tease :)

i KNOW...it's sad. i never teased any girl while i was there. :p hehe

[kakaballi]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@KKF

i KNOW…it’s sad. i never teased any girl while i was there. hehe

Because you were always in the library and girls were not allowed in there?

:halo:

[muqawwee123]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

i KNOW...it's sad. i never teased any girl while i was there. :p hehe

but teasing was not that bad in Indian culture. remember proud Madhoobala dancing on 'mohe panghat pe nand laal chheR gayo re'.

sorry kaka for your thread :(

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@kakaballi

Because you were always in the library and girls were not allowed in there?

:halo:

i never went to library and that’s why i was kicked out from there…ham to hamesha movie meN paaye jaate the, Railway station par AMU kii laRkiyoN ko train par biThaane kaa Thekaa liyaa huaa thaa aur Girls College ke aage khaRii reRhii se chaaT khaayaa karte the.

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

but teasing was not that bad in Indian culture. remember proud Madhoobala dancing on 'mohe panghat pe nand laal chheR gayo re'.

sorry kaka for your thread :(

vo zamaane lad gaye. ab to laRkiyaaN bhii vaise kuchh kam nahiiN...laRkiyaaN laRkoN se paRhaaii ke silsile se bahot madad maangti haiN aur laRke log isii aas meN madad kar dete haiN k shaayad kanniya paT jaaye. lol

paRhaaii meN madad se muraad 'guess paper', books, notes, pichhle 5 saal ke exam papers vaGhaira kii faraahmii hai...laRkii ne guess paper maang liyaa to laRkaa bhookaa pyaasaa saaraa din gali gali, mohalle mohalle chaan maartaa hai uskii Husool ke liye. poor guys! haha

[kakaballi]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

i never went to library and that's why i was kicked out from there...ham to hamesha movie meN paaye jaate the, Railway station par AMU kii laRkiyoN ko train par biThaane kaa Thekaa liyaa huaa thaa aur Girls College ke aage khaRii reRhii se chaaT khaayaa karte the. :D

The impact of segregation. The mere sight of a girl was enough!

According to Yousufi ( I wonder why I am refering to him so much); "Hamarey zamanay mein larkay kisi larki ka x-ray bhi dekh lain tau aashiq ho jaya kertay thay"

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

@kakaballi

The impact of segregation. The mere sight of a girl was enough!

According to Yousufi ( I wonder why I am refering to him so much); “Hamarey zamanay mein larkay kisi larki ka x-ray bhi dekh lain tau aashiq ho jaya kertay thay”

lolz yes…Abdullah Hall was notorious for boys to congregate around 3 pm when the classes ended for the day. sabhii ke live ‘deedaar’ ho jaayaa karte the…yuN kaheN k:

aaNkheN jaa kar ham bhii seNk aate the! 17 saal kii umr baRii Kharaab hotii hai. vaise ek baat hai:

17 saal kaa laRkaa dikhne meN kitnaa buraa lagtaa hai, magar
17 saal kii laRkii kitnii pyaarii lagtii hai jise dekhne ke liye saare shehr se log umaR aate haiN.

[the_kaur]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

i KNOW...it's sad. i never teased any girl while i was there. :p hehe

My St Stephens of DU is better anyway :p

[KKF]

Re: Urdu is a complex language

My St Stephens of DU is better anyway :p

is it because it has a GORA name to it? :p