Life in Pakistan is not as mechanised as life in the West. Even when you have all the right equipment. You have to take into account load shedding and various other things.
Some of the servants that worked at my home, in one time or the other ranged from good people who wouldn't do a bit of work or to people who were very competent and theives!
Hmmm, perhaps. As I said, I haven't really been to Pakistan so I haven't actually witnessed it first hand. I guess I'll have to see it to believe it! :)
Mehnaz, are these newly-arrived-in-Canada aunties that you speak about? I ask because aunties that my mom knows have been in the US for a very long time, like us, and tend not to boast about things like this athough a comment here and there indicates that their families do have servants back in Pakistan.
My own extended family in Pakistan keeps servants. I don’t see anything wrong with that because like Faisal said, the servants have a steady income coming in. But unlike how some uppity people may be treating their servants, I have never ever seen my extended family in Pakistan treat any servants with disrespect when I have gone on vacations, etc. If anything, I’ve only seen my nani ammi or cousins give the servants gifts over and above a regular salary to servants for their children and whatnot. It is so important that the sevants’ dignity remain intact. They’re human too just like everyone else, earning “halaal ki roti.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by moona: *
Mehnaz, are these newly-arrived-in-Canada aunties that you speak about? I ask because aunties that my mom knows have been in the US for a very long time, like us, and tend not to boast about things like this athough a comment here and there indicates that their families do have servants back in Pakistan. /QUOTE]
Some are newly arrived and some have been here for about 15 years!! It's just strange hearing about it cause I've never witnessed it .... I would hope that these people are treated well like you all are saying. :)
Pakistani's have a distinct relationship with their hired help in Pakistan, which doesn't necessarily translate here in Egypt. It’s a job nothing less.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
A job is a job. A waiter in a restaurant in US also waits on people. He can also feel insulted. Obviously there are glaring differences. I think the primary difference is that most domestic servants in Pak, especially those who are live-in (given quarters attached the home), usually work 7 days a week. They are typically given very little holidays.
[/QUOTE]
You are forgetting the biggest glaring difference, there are no standards, no regulation and thus no enforcement of the minimum wages, living facilities, vacations and work hours.
The people who work for good houeholds probably have a decent life but there are those who are ripe for abuse because there is nothing to protect them.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
You are forgetting the biggest glaring difference, there are no standards, no regulation and thus no enforcement of the minimum wages, living facilities, vacations and work hours.
The people who work for good houeholds probably have a decent life but there are those who are ripe for abuse because there is nothing to protect them.
[/QUOTE]
Yup, there should be a union or laws to protect the servants from being abused ... particularly the women who can be sexually exploited by the men in the house. From the outset, the whole practice of having servants is very similar to the msui tsai system in Hong Kong and China although not as extreme since people aren't blatantly being purchased and sold in the open for everyone to see.
I think it is easy to say that if the servants were unhappy or being abused, they would simply leave. However, lack of any other financial opportunities and the their fear of repercussions from the family they work for probably keep them quiet.
Frauds, I am talking about Pakistan... Over there, even employees of khokhay walay, those who work in shops and restaurants, anyone who is employed by any small business.... do NOT have any standards vis a vis minimum wages, living quarters or what not. The only standard I am aware of is minimum wage, which is applied to industrial workers and government employees. The rest are just not there.
Probably the theory is of free market economy. If they don't like the wages or working hours, they can move on and work for someone else. If they feel abused, they can leave and go some place else. Ofcourse, that is not always true. I don't think abuse of domestic servants is very wide-spread. Its there, yes... but a smaller percentage. Ofcourse, its just my experience.
*Originally posted by irem: *
Fraud bhai, America kee life is totally different from Pakistan's life....
okay lets hear it
In Pakistan, your house must be cleaned every single day, fresh food must be cooked every single day, you socialise much more and with that come a million more tasks...
I disagree..I can think of several families who have lived in pakistan and here both who have the exact same sort of lifestyle with the exception of they are working more and have no servants.
Fresh food is cooked daily in those households, the house is cleaned daily, and socializing goes on as it would in Pakistan. and the homes are maintained in a manner that they are clean or are cleaned daily.
*imagine how hard it must be for women who have other jobs outside the house to do allll this by themselves, and if they can pay to get domestic help them why not, *
Oh no one is saying its not hard, but they do it, otherwise tons of professional women in US will all need servants. Almost everyone I know here in US has both spouses working, oh and teh strange thing, i dont really notice a difference between teh cleanliness of the homes of families where the wife is not working vs. where she is.
so domestic help is a convenience, its a perk.. not a need.
kisi aur ko bhee rozi mil jayay gi....
yeah but this is not the motive for people hiring sevants, its just because that the help is cheap there, they do an assessment of their value if time and effort and thus get servants. There is no altruistic motive to help others and get servants for that reaosn only.
even women who dont work and have huge houses, they have many responsibilities to take care of, imagine if they started cleaning the whole house by themselves, that alone would take half the day...
What is your definition of huge houses.. 5000 sq feet large nuff? Lemme see 5 couples in my family in US who have homes about that size with both spouses working, have kids in school and I believe 2 of them have a cleaning lady and 3 do not. 3 couples in this case are both doctors, one couple is made of of a doc and a psychologist, and one couple is a doctor and an accountant. There are others who dont have such huge houses but are in the 3000-4000 sq feet home range where everyione is also working. A number of people have lived in pakistan and have had servants. 2 couples here had all kinds of help in pakistan but dont here.
They manage.
*idhar theres dish washers, washing machines, dryers, *
How many households in Pakistan dont have washing machines, of those that dont how many just use the dhobi? what is teh time saving in colelcting clothes and giving to the dhobi and getting them back, washed, dried, pressed vs using a washing machine and dryer, which takes more time?
automation does not mean no work on the part of people. a vaccum cleaner does not clean the house by itself..well except for roomba, but that has its limitations.
what automation cooks food? :D I would like to buy something that figures out what to cook, plan a menu, get the groceries, cook, clean after cooking and serve..
dishwashers is a diff thing, and okay so ppl have this maasi character who comes in and does the work, similar to how peopel have cleaning ladies here.
chaowkidaar I can understand due to security issues..
but the question is more about live in 24/7 servants. They are defintely not needed...a luxury expense, sure.
and i have seen here the whole family pools in, even in traditional households the sons and husbands pool in, while in pak its not so....
this is nto always the case, but on average I would agree that its more than in Pakistan.
*hazaaarrr kaam hotay hayn pak mein gharon mein which are not part of life in America... *
Like..? lets have some examples :)
Yaar faisal
I was basing it on your sentence where u talked about US waiters...I have quoted you below to refresh your memory :)
I fully understand what you mean that other professions like waiters etc have no real protection either, but in general they have some sort of set hours and some sort of days off. Not always the case with servants..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
A job is a job. A waiter in a restaurant in US also waits on people. He can also feel insulted.
[/QUOTE]
Mr. Fraudia, I completely agree with everything you have said. :k: :k:
Half of these comments I questioned myself, but then I didn’t think I was any authority to argue against Irem’s points cause I’ve never been to Pakistan.
If, ever, someone in Pakistan decides to take up the issue of having regulatory controls and standards, then domestic servants will probably be either very low on the list or part of a much bigger initiative. We probably need standards for all employees, not just industrial employees and govt. servants. Minimum wage, working hours, living conditions and what not.
Before that, someone also needs to takle bigger and far worse issues of what happens in the villages and tribes, where literally men and women are considered slaves, kept in prisons and made to work for no compensation, except food.
In a world of finite resources, and relativity of mistreatment, domestic servants in urban cities don't have it half as bad.
Originally posted by irem: *
**in pak life is more slow paced and actual WORK is much more... *
life is slow paced or people?
**for example, in my house, every single day, when we cook, we have to make it from SCRATCH...
cooking one meal takes three hours coz u have to sit there, cut the meat and vegetables, clean the rice and flour, knead it, cut the onions, tomatoes, etc etc, no using yoghurt from the market, no using frozen or premade ingredients etc etc... **
errr but peopel do have frozen meat in freezers that they use. aside from Kneading the flour etc etc.. I personally have cooked at the day's end, so has my wife..she cooks more often because she is s better cook but this is after a day's work. same for my sister.
no using yogurt from the market? who do all those yogurt shops sell to then?
over here things can be done fast....theres no concept of instant cooking in pak at all...
Not many desi households here use microwave dinners or canned dinners. The desi food is cooked fresh daily.
when the dishes r washed, each pot needs to be scrubbed and cleaned and the dishes are ten times more than here coz family size is larger...
really? are you comparing young families here to older families there? the examples I gave in my prior post included my cousin, who has 3 kids, his sister and mother live with him as well. both him and his wife work, and have no outside help. other example was of my sister who has 3 kids, and her inlaws live with her as well. so there goes teh family size fallacy.
seriously, every time i go back home i marvel at this and see how different things r done here n back home...
They choose to do them differently because they can, its not that it must be done in that particular way.
the whole house needs to be dusted and swept and vacuumed every single day...i have never heard of that happenning in households here...
only because windows are open and dust comes in. plenty of dust comes in homes in arizona as well :) does it all have to be cleaned daily, would it be cleaned every other day if there was no help at home?
see we have to differentiate between what must be done, or what is the norm because there is help around :)
everyday theres clothes to be starched and ironed and washed...
versus here people are walkign around nangu putangu so they dont need as many clothes?
again why do they need to be washed and starched everyday? why not laundry twice a week, what do people do who dont have a servant, does teh dhobi come everyday what about people who dont use a dhobhi and have washing machines? do they do laundry everyday?
every day theres birds to feed and garden to be cleaned ...
right, and the birds here can just chill and not eat for a while. and what happens in the garden that it needs to be cleaned everyday? how do peopel here manage it?
u have a full social life and u have to maintain urselvs and ur households to keep up w/ that in pak....over here its different...
people dont have a "full social life" here, or they dont need to maintain themselves and their households?
*so there much more tasks that need to be taken care of in pak than here....or so i feel... *
like?
The only real difference i will buy is that the ana-jaana in most cases is higher. thats it.
everything else is an option people have chosen because they have the help. ask people if they would be washing and starching their clothes daily, and cleaning teh garden daily (or feeding teh birds daily..how can i forget how important that is), or these assorted other nakhraas and chonchlaas that somehow is a "must have", which in reality is not.
Faisal
i agree with what you are saying, it seems like this post is looking at various aspects
1) People need servants in Pakistan because the life style demands it (which is utter nonsense as an argument in my view)
2) servants are not treated well (most that I have seen are treated well, but there are those that are not, the conditions are ripe for their abuse if someone wants to)
3) automation in the west means you dont need servants. (as soon as i see a vaccum cleaner that cleans the house, a lawnmower that will does "all" the yardwork by itself, some item which cooks on demand.i aint buying it)
I think the crux of the argument is that people in Pakistan (or for that matter any other country, Africa, Far East, Latin America what not) have domestic servants, because help is cheap, and people can afford it.
Also, because they become part of the household as well as helping the social fabric of our economy. I know for a fact, that my mom just kept on the whole contingent of employees, even though both me and my brother moved out of Pakistan, simply because she feels "where will they go, there are just no jobs". Now all those just sit around, chatting and have very light work load, since its only my parents there now, and there is just not a lot of work. But my mother just doesn't feel like letting go of old employees, who have, in a way, grown up with us. When we call Pakistan, we not only talk to our parents, but also to all those baba ji's, khan bhai's and assorted group of help who wait for our phone calls just as much as my parents.
Thirdly, why are you picking up on Irem? :)
In any case, Mehnaz started this thread, because she was irked at the stereotype that those who have servants servants in Pakistan are lazy people (aunties, mostly). There is no going around it. Thats true for many of them. They are lazy. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
I always seem to encounter these (supposedly) upper class woman who show off about how they had servants back home in Pakistan and now that they live in Canada, they have to do all of their own housework themselves (cry me a river!).
[/QUOTE]
If they miss their servants so much, tell them to please go back. I am sure Canadians didn't beg them to come here, in the first place. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
From what I gather, it is only the middle to upper class families in Pakistan who have too much money for their own good who hire servants.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure about the "too much" part. Its just a way of life there. Even those who have very limited budgets, would typically have atleast a jamadarni come in and clean the house etc.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
My question is, why can't these women and men get up and do their own housework? Why hire a 24-hour servant?? Is there really any need for having a servant or is it more for social status and a symbol of wealth?
[/QUOTE]
I am sure if they have to, they can do their own housework, but they chose to hire someone to do it, cz its cheaper and allows them to be lazy and enjoy other things in life (like gossip, television, reading a novel etc etc). The practice is so rampant, that its hardly a social status or symbol of wealth in Pakistan.
:k:
I agree with you, I mean life in America is no different. We cook everyday from scratch, we never eat left overs. We clean the house everyday, we sweep, dust and vaccum the house everyday. We maintain our garden and feed the birds. We wash clothes everyday. We do not have a dishwasher we do dishes and there are a lot. We don’t have anyone mow our lawn or maintain our garden for us, nor do we have people shoveling our snow in the winter. We do everything ourself, we have a big house and no servants here at all. The Prophet (saw) said “Al-ud al-ilya” basically meaning those of you who do things on your own are the best of you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Thirdly, why are you picking up on Irem? :)
[/QUOTE]
I am just arguing against her examples.
I think u and I are saying the same thing
servants are not a need..but a luxury that those who afford should go for.
most servants get treated well, some dont ut the conditions are such that they can be treated badly if people choose to do it.
there are no real standard workday hours of holidays in most cases.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I am sure if they have to, they can do their own housework, but they chose to hire someone to do it, cz its cheaper and allows them to be lazy and enjoy other things in life (like gossip, television, reading a novel etc etc). The practice is so rampant, that its hardly a social status or symbol of wealth in Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
Agree with everything except the last part. In my opinion, it is a sign of social status and wealth especially if these women do NOT work and sit around gossiping and socialising all day.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
Agree with everything except the last part. In my opinion, it is a sign of social status and wealth especially if these women do NOT work and sit around gossiping and socialising all day.
[/QUOTE]
Wwhen everyone has servants, they can't really brag about it, can they? MAJORITY women in Pakistan, who live in cities don't work outside jobs (this is rapidly changing with higher cost of living and more ambitious girls). So, thats all they do: socializing, gossiping, taking care of the kids/home etc. All of them have some or the other form of domestic help.
Its like you brag about "hey! I have a dishwasher"... what will the other say - "Big deal!". Right? Its same over there about servants.
When these same aunties are living in Pakistan, they are probably complaining about the servants non-stop.. kaam nahi karta, khanay mein nakhray karta hai, susst hai, paisay choree karr liyay etc etc. When they move to Canada, phir qadar aatee hai, aur phir everything in Pakistan is rosy for them. "Ah, we miss the comfort of our home there"... Phir kisss nay kaha thaa idher aanay. Baithay raho waheen araam say!