Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

As far as democracy is concerned, situation of Altaf in MQM is similar to situation of Maududi in JI, Bhutto in PPP, Mujib in AL, Wali Khan in ANP, Imran Khan in TI, and so on. Obviously, for those who started a party, to outbid them democratically is not even a possibility. If such would happen than it would be coup, not outbidding the head democratically. Democratically elected head of party comes once founding father of party is gone.

As for until when Altaf Hussain would stay head of party, that I believe is up to him. As for time period ... Wallah-Alaam :)

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

General perception of every Pakistani Political Parties are different then realities.

I do not know how long Altaf Hussain would stay as party head, though as it is, it seems he would stay as party head for long time to come.

On the other hand, if situation arises such that party would need new head, then I believe that whoever the person would be, he should keep himself clear from government posts (should not take part in election or take up ministries or any other elected posts).

In my opinion, if such situation arises then probably Ishrat-ul-Ibad may take over, though I would not be surprised if ‘not so known person’ would come up. Mustafa Kamal could be a choice, but then I believe he is still young and would be better serving in official capacity (as minister, mayor, or whatever).

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Those are nice points. I don't think anyone would disagree if MQM does it.
But I would like to add one more thing. MQM is primarily an urban party with no feudal connections whatsoever. Therefore it would be great if MQM stops revering its figure head.
I think a lot of people approve of MQM's team but it is hard for them to digest the Pir Sahab spiritual leader on whose farmaan a lot of people are ready to give their jaan.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Since, overseas Pakistanis were granted the right to vote, will you exercise your vote in upcoming elections?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

You must have heard the proverb: Live in Rome like Romans lives.

Regardless of party would like to work for people or work for party owners (so-called leaders), one thing is certain. Politics in subcontinent takes into account peoples psyche, and that demands making leader Demigod. That is what I believe MQM is also doing.

I do not think that MQM leadership is problem. Problem as you earlier pointed out is image and perception. I believe if MQM would like to get representation from all over Pakistan, party needs a lot of work to change that image and perception.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

I would only take part in voting if at the time of election I am in Pakistan, or I move to Pakistan (what I intend to do in near future).

Reason: I believe I have no right (Moral right) to vote those who once elected could not directly effect my life. Right to vote them are of those who get directly effected by elected members.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Saleem what about up comming ellections in Pakistan? Who gonna get next term? The current two party system is the best we have? incase PMLN win what you think MQM chose to stay in opposition or shake hand with them again as ally?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Allow me to disagree with your view. Being settled abroad does not mean that we are not concerned with our country. In any case, one way or the other, we remain attached with our motherland and this is strong enough a reason to vote in elections.

Secondly, your vote is an untransferable right which rests with you exclusively. If you do not vote, it's dead. It is your duty to help country find the most suitable team to run its affair. Even if you live abroad, will not you like your countrymen to benefit from a vote which is educated, mature, sensible and calculated, and eventually have better a government, a better country and a better life?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

I will agree with Amal here, it might not make a differenc to you, but your vote will surely make a difference to those who reside there.

Also, since you said your inclination is towards MQM, you might will vote for them, but on second thought, which party is closest to your political preferences?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

If you are a Pakistani citizen, it is your DUTY, not right, to vote. We might not value it but you can ask any Spanish person around you how precious they think their vote is, after years of dictatorship in their country.

If you like military rule in Pakistan, then its another matter.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Sa1eem bhai, you are ma'shaAllah an engineer and PhD. Scholars and scientists do not base their arguments on perceptions but on realities and evidence.

There is more than sufficient evidence regarding MQM being involved in criminal activities and is not a 'perception' only. The evidence regarding bhatta khori is HUGE, not trivial. It is true that most members of PPP fund their politics through their landholdings and PML(N) through industries and businesses (later reaping returns on that investment through corruption) but being "representative of working middle-class", MQM cannot really claim they fund their activities through donations only. I would say the cost of millions of posters of Altaf Bhai pasted around Karachi alone require mammoth funding. There are also sufficient neutral narratives and studies describing the party being involved in violent and militant activities.

You described perception and image of MQM as 'tarnished'. I would say there is a lot of truth to that image. A simple empirical evidence is how Karachi starts burning as soon as something happens in our political arena that MQM is not comfortable with. I don't think this image can be improved through propaganda only, as you suggested.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

As the things are, I believe in next election PPP would again come out as the largest party in NA, though with possibly lesser seats. Getting next term is number game and I would not be surprised if PPP gets the next term too. ... Reason being, with Zardari on driving seat they have shown a good alliance making ability what I believe any party would need to form next government.

As for current political situation in Pakistan, it is myth that Pakistan has two parties system. Pakistan has two big parties of looters and exploiters whose sole purpose are to suck blood out of masses and skin the country. There is little difference between them two evils and Pakistan do not need any of the two.

Anyhow, amongst those two evils, I believe PPP is better than PMLN, because PMLN do not only exploit masses as PPP does, but also exploits religion (Islam) what PPP do not (at least to the extend PMLN does). PPP when in power also do a bit for poor of country along with corruption, nepotism, etc ... but PMLN while doing corruption and nepotism no less than PPP, do nothing for poor Pakistanis and considers those who do not vote them with contempt.

In case PMLN wins the term (though very unlikely, as they are now a regional party with reducing vote bank) ... What MQM strategy should be?

In Pakistani political mind-set (and system as it is), those who are in opposition gets persecuted along with their voters. Further, those who are in opposition do everything to destabilise the government, especially if they can do so.

MQM (as presently) is a regional party who would like to serve their electorates and for that they have to make alliance with whoever gets into power. If they take up opposition or are deprived of their say as ally, they have all right to do everything to destabilise the government ... what they can do very effectively being in control of Karachi that contributes ~70 percent of Pakistani revenue and is gateway of Pakistani trade.

Thus after election, MQM is left with two choices: Be in alliance and work for prosperity of people, country and their own electorates ... or be in opposition and make life of government so difficult that government falls. As for party who may form government, they also have two choices, that is to ask MQM for alliance or ride a situation that could make their life in government extremely difficult.

In my view, being a regional party wanting to serve their electorates, it is best for MQM to have alliance with ruling party than be in opposition where they can not only destabilise government but in process could harm their electorates, government, as well as economical well being of country.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

I appreciate different views. No doubt Pakistanis settled abroad keep their attachments and are always concerned about Pakistan and well being of Pakistan.

Regardless, giving vote is a different thing to having attachments and concerns. There is technical hitch here.

Pakistan has parliamentary system where each elected member has their own constituency and in parliament they represent voters living in their constituency. Elected Assembly member also represents Pakistan generally and in this case he represents all Pakistanis regardless of they are from his constituency or not.

For me, even though I have residential address in Pakistan, I could not say that I really live in any election constituency to have someone representing me from there. Thus for me, an elected member from all parts of Pakistan (each and every constituency) represent me as they represent Pakistan in general, but me making someone representing me from any particular constituency would be not morally right (in my view).

Note: A voter can have residential address in one election constituency or many constituencies, but his voting right is normally in constituency where he lives (or registered as living). He could not vote in constituencies he does not live even though he might have residential address there (or belongs there).

Same should be for oversees Pakistanis that they should only vote in constituency they live (or at least temporarily living), but as they do not live (even temporarily unless they are visiting) in any Pakistani constituency, they should not vote.

[Well, that is my view. It does not mean all should hold such views and I respect views even if it is different than mine].

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Thank you for an honest description of MQM's politics. "Give us our share of power or else you won't find peace in Karachi."

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

First of all, you should know that I was born in Karachi and many from the family are living in Karachi since before partition. I have 1000s ... literally 1000s of relatives and friends who live in Karachi and I also know many others working class Karachiets who are neither relatives nor friends. Many I know were once supporter of JI (and many still are). Few were once supporter of PPP too.

Now, is it not surprising that I came across none (literally ‘NONE’) from amongst those I know personally who complained that MQM takes Bhatta. Whereas, I came across many (rather most I met) who appreciated the work MQM did for the city. I also know many who benefitted from works MQM did in the city, especially poor and vulnerable.

Once I raised the issue with my brother who moved from Canada to Karachi and considers that Pakistani politics stink. According to him, most Pakistanis outside Karachi are so shameless that they knowingly give votes to same people who rape, abuse, maltreat, degrade, and loot them, but their votes fall to these thugs only because they consider them as from their Bradari.

Coming to issue, according to my Brother, every year before Eid-ul-Fitar MQM people come asking for Fitra (they also have receipt that they give for collection). My brother said he gave them Rs 5000, and they had no change, so my brother told them to return the remaining and they agreed. In few hours they returned with change and handed it over to my brother (each and every rupee they had to return). On Eid-ul-Azha they come to collect skin. Even though my brother does not support MQM or any party, he thinks that MQM has greatly improved the condition of life in Karachi and thus he occasionally gives them Chanda (donation) voluntarily as appreciation ... without anyone asking him.

If you consider that Bhatta then that is OK, if you consider that as genuine collection then that is fine too. Unfortunately, many in Karachi even complain about such collections considering it forced collection, but do not talk about all facilities that they got provided by party. Many poor get controlled price items during Ramadan, help with food every month, free clothing and free medical facilities.

One example (that you can see on internet): To tackle traffic problem from North Karachi to Kemari (Lyari area) MQM district government started Lyari fly-over. One way of the fly-over (from North Karachi towards city on eastern side of Lyari River) got completed and other (from city towards North Karachi on western side of Lyari River) was on verge of completion before district government got abolished. Now it is over 4 years and still that uncompleted part of fly-over is where it was. If you want to see that, you can see the state of the fly-over on google map ... that would show the state the work got stopped. Thus journey time from North Karachi to Tower is ~20 minutes but return journey takes over an hour because return section of fly-over is not completed.

Fact is that, I would prefer to give donation (or even Bhatta) to a party that serves then pay tax to government that do not provide anything in return. Unfortunately, Karachi is paying billions of ‘Jagga tax’ to Pakistan government that do not provide anything in return other than discrimination, abuses, humiliation, deprivation, joblessness, anarchy, and lawlessness.

I know that many big businessmen are forced to pay Bhatta even today. But such Bhatta is not necessarily got collected by MQM, rather it got collected by many others who give nothing to the city other than anarchy and misery.

Nevertheless, at time when party did not used to get enough voluntary donations, they must be collecting Bhatta from those who had means (rich businessmen), but then they provided the goods in return ... and that was ‘hard and honest work’ when in government with little or no corruption. Personally, I would prefer such Bhatta (if enough donations is not available) over getting corrupt people in power spending their own money for contesting election but doing nothing when in power other than mismanagement, exploitation, abuses, loot and plunder.

These days, what I know, many businessmen knowing and appreciating work done by MQM in city, give large donations to MQM voluntarily. That is the reason MQM with huge access fund in their kitty started KKF (Khidmat-e-Khalq Foundation), that helps and serves needy people all over Pakistan, especially during calamities.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Sa1eem bhai, are you telling me MQM is not violent and is not involved in criminal activities? Sorry, but I have absolutely no doubt about it.

I am not saying this from propaganda or anecdotal evidence. I can share with you neutral, respected and independent studies of politics and crime in Karachi.

You were saying that if MQM needs to extend to other parts of Pakistan, it needs to counter propaganda with propaganda. As a non-resident of Karachi, I can tell you it won't work. If MQM leaves its violent and criminal ways, then there is a significant chance of it being successful elsewhere. I would certainly prefer MQM over PPP or PML(N) in that case.

As far as public service is concerned, I can assure you that Shahbaz Sharif does a much better job but lacks the marketing skills of MQM. The problem with him is same as MQM. He focuses on Lahore only and MQM on Karachi only. Of course, he doesn't have as dedicated and hard working team as MQM.

The question for a non-resident of Karachi when it comes to MQM: How can I differentiate between a party that uses religion to propagate violence and assert power and another that uses ethnicity for same purposes?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

In a country where any party in opposition gets persecuted and pinned to wall, is it not right of parties in opposition to do the same, make life of party in power as difficult as possible?

Actually, all Pakistani Political Parties do the same when in opposition, that is, do all what they can to bring down the government. So, if MQM does that then there should be no complains.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

Bhai, did I write anywhere that MQM is not capable of violence? Actually, all parties in Pakistan are capable of violence. No party that is peaceful could survive in Pakistan for long.

So, I would not even like to go into discussion of party being violent or not, rather I would prefer to talk about what a party do, can do, or did for their voters and places they became responsible.

[quote]
You were saying that if MQM needs to extend to other parts of Pakistan, it needs to counter propaganda with propaganda. As a non-resident of Karachi, I can tell you it won't work. If MQM leaves its violent and criminal ways, then there is a significant chance of it being successful elsewhere. I would certainly prefer MQM over PPP or PML(N) in that case.
[/quote]

You think that counter propaganda would not work, but I believe it would. You might think that MQM ways are criminal and violent, but I believe differently. For me, they are as criminal or violent as any other Pakistani political parties, with difference that they are mostly from working class, work for people they represent, and are not financially corrupt.

[quote]
As far as public service is concerned, I can assure you that Shahbaz Sharif does a much better job but lacks the marketing skills of MQM. The problem with him is same as MQM. He focuses on Lahore only and MQM on Karachi only. Of course, he doesn't have as dedicated and hard working team as MQM.
[/quote]

I do not know what Shahbaz Shareef did, but what I heard is that Pervaiz Elahi did much more work in Punjab during his tenor than what Shahbaz did even though Shahbaz ruled Punjab twice the time Pervaiz Elahi ruled.

Anyhow, you yourself admitted that most of his work is in Lahore, even though he ruled whole of Punjab for years. It shows that he has his prejudices, discriminations and biases ... else he would have served all areas he ruled equally. MQM is different here, as they served all areas they ruled, be that area is Karachi or Hyderabad.

Shahaz is also power freak and there are many stories of his high headedness. He is not from working class anyhow to know problems of average Pakistani. To talk about Shareef serving people is just like talking about Wolves serving Sheep. Shareef Brothers are also famous for their financial corruption, lies, arrogance, power misuse, incompetency ... and so on.

[quote]
The question for a non-resident of Karachi when it comes to MQM: How can I differentiate between a party that uses religion to propagate violence and assert power and another that uses ethnicity for same purposes?
[/quote]

Well, your above statement itself is result of propaganda. It seems your propaganda infected mind has developed idea that MQM uses ethnicity to propagate violence, without even questioning how a party can be ethnic that has members and office bearers coming from various ethnicities.

For instance, Muhajirs are people from provinces all over sub-continent with different ethnicity, languages and culture. Further, MQM also have office bearers and voters who are from all over Pakistan (Sindh, Gilgit-Baltistan, Azad Kashmir, Punjab, Saraki, Swati, Pakhtuns, Makrani, Baluch, etc). So, what ethnicity you are talking about?

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

That is exactly why I am emphasizing NEUTRAL, INDEPENDENT and CREDIBLE studies and reports detailing MQM's use of ethnic violence. I am sure you must be well versed in the use of Google Scholar. If you refuse to accept them, then it seems it is not MY mind that is propaganda infected.

I am also not saying MQM is the ONLY party involved in violence or ethnic violence in Pakistan. I am just saying that if MQM has to expand its presence to other parts of Pakistan, it has to reduce its reliance on power and violence to further its objectives and bring something other than victim mentality to the table to convince people to switch political loyalties. There are political parties in Punjab, for example, using tribe and family last names to gain political advantage, but they do not (generally) resort to violent means for that purpose alone. PPP has strong militant wing in Karachi and why not elsewhere? They have to move from power politics and ethnicity to something else in rest of the country.

For the most part, I agree with MQM's politics and what it stands for and I admire the organization and management of the party, specially the marketing aspects. What I don't agree is with the use of violence and crime to achieve what it wants. We have seen it many times already in Karachi and almost every time Altaf Hussain addresses he mentions that he is trying hard to restrain his forces otherwise they would cause havoc in Karachi. In some parts of Pakistan, MQM is considered to be not very different from other militant organizations. There has to be a very concerted effort from the party to gain acceptance elsewhere.

Re: Unplugged With Guppies — Sa1eem

by burning busses and killing random people? if you say so.