Understanding the Qur'an [Split discussion]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by oiqbal: *
All the posts are not read either and that is a fact too.

We do not force anyone to read anything, we just present what we believe to be right. I have not read anything copy/pasted and posted. I have the ability to go to the search engines and search on the topics and read various points of views. Everyone who is using Internet and coming to this discussion forum to share their thoughts has that ability.

I will say that a discussion forum is better utilized for discussions and exchanging our own views and thoughts.

Thanks
[/QUOTE]

Assalam Aleekum
Who is "WE". Interesting.

Most of the posts require Verses and Hadiths to be posted.

I agree oiqbal.. if people are using some online resource to make a point.. at least understand it first and then discuss what you took from it than just plaster all of it in a discussion as your counterargument.. unless it's Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid undercover himself .. if then .. I apologize.

"WE" is general -- applies to everyone on this forum. We those who all post.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by oiqbal: *
"WE" is general -- applies to everyone on this forum. We those who all post.
[/QUOTE]

Assalam Aleekum
Iqbal Bhi, I think You can only speak for yourself. Or have you taken
an online poll. And I am not surprised "Pak Abroad' endorsing
your opinion.

take care

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Moreover, we would ask these people: where are the aayaat which tell us how to pray, or which tell us that the obligatory prayers are five times daily, or which tell us about the nisaab on various kinds of wealth for the purpose of zakaah, or about the details of the rituals of Hajj, and other rulings which we can only know from the Sunnah?

Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 1/44

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I remember PA once posting a good thought-provoking thread about salaat in the Qur'an in this forum. You may want to read that one.
If not totally agree, you'll have to admit it is very thought-provoking

It was indeed meant ONLY to provoke thoughts NeScio and per my understanding of the subject at that time.

The simple concept to grasp here is.. if you don't find it in the Qur'an the way you are used to.. maybe you are used to things the wrong way.. don't doubt the Qur'an.. doubt your practices.. The Qur'an is the Criterion... The process of reading the Qur'an shouldn't stop.. it's the cornerstone to linking with Allah.

So if you think u don't find 2.5% mentioned in the Qur'an.. maybe the 2.5% is a cooked up figure and giving charity as Zakat is how much u can spare to give in Allah's way .. just one of the ways to purify yourself... not all.

P.S. if you'd make an original post once in a while rehman1, i'd 'endorse' you too :)

^the second paragraph is the essence. If your practices aren't to be found in the Qur'an, which is the golden standard, you should not start rationalising your acts, instead re-evaluate those acts

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NeSCio: *

In these Ayah the emphasis is on the Prophet as a teacher/explainer/tutor along with his being a messenger, let's explore the example of someone being a teacher then:

if you take a teacher from school. Indeed he explains you the subject matter (like math formulas etc), indeed he give you hints and tips to tackle certain problems in certain ways. HOWEVER, the essence of all he teaches is recorded in the math course book (in this analogy the Qur'an). Moreover, the sign of a bright student is not that of someone who blindly learns the examples of his teacher by heart (since they are mere examples and examples don't come back during the test), it is one who takes the book as basis and from within himself uses this book to explore new solutions to the problems at hand. Solutions that fit in well in the formulas. And he only takes the formulas of the teacher as informal reference, not as something to follow blindly. Indeed, the background against which we shud give our test has changed drastically over the course of years: from pre-medievel to post-modernism. And often you will see that examples age as well, but the textbook (the formulas/ the subject matter) remains as it is

As for the wisdom part. Of course, your maths teacher teaches you wisdom as well. as far as the 'book' in the ayah goes it is meant the literal text, the 'wisdom' might be the 'example' he gives, but then again as I've mentioned the bright student is the one who explores solutions using his insight and the basic text. Anyhow, on the other hand one can justifiably argue that the wisdom is also concealed in the Book as well. This is a figure of speech called tautology.

Remains the issue of accepting the Prophet as judge in disputes: Don't you think that the Prophet will base his decisions on the Qur'an? Or do you think that his decision will be something different than what the Quran states and such requires people to write these down?
[/QUOTE]

*NeSCio * – I thinks your analogy of a teacher/student is a faulty.

But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom AND TAUGHT THEE WHAT THOU KNEWEST NOT (BEFORE ): And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee. 4:113

If you are going to take the Prophet (saw) as a teacher than you have to take him as a perfect teacher who was *GUIDED AND TAUGHT BY ALMIGHTY ALLAH (swt)! *

Please take note that Allah (swt) Himself states that He taught Prophet Muhammad (saw)!

Take note too of the BOOK and WISDOM as two separate entities!

The Book is the Quran and the Wisdom is for the Prophet’s Sunnah.

So Allah (swt) commanded the Prophet (saw) to “make (things) clear to them” and “that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them” as the two following Ayahs state.

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. 14:4

(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. 16:44

Seeing that the Prophet (saw) was “stressing” himself in explaining the Ayahs; Allah (swt) has taken upon Himself to make it clear ( to enter the hearts of mankind – as Allah (swt) has left the guidance exclusively to Himself).

Move not your tongue with it to hasten it. Surely it is upon Us to gather it and to recite it. So, when We recite it, follow its Recitation. Then surely it is upon Us to make it clear. 75:16-19

So the above Ayahs make it clear that everything that needed to be taught was taught with the best ability and there was no scope of what you erroneously stated:

[QUOTE]
indeed he give you hints and tips to tackle certain problems in certain ways
[/QUOTE]

The Prophet (saw) did not give hints and tips but definite commands and instructions which were, are and will be binding on every believer till day of Judgment!

[QUOTE]
HOWEVER, the essence of all he teaches is recorded in the math course book (in this analogy the Qur'an).
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Yes but the details and methodology which you cannot do without are given by the Prophet (swt) by his Sunnah.

“The Qur'an generally deals with the broad principles or essentials of Islam, going into details in very rare cases. The details were generously supplied by the Prophet himself, either by showing in his practice how an injunction shall be carried out, or by giving an explanation in words.”

We pray as the Prophet (saw) prayed

We perform haj as the Prophet (saw) performed or allowed to be performed

We pay Zakat as per Prophet’s instructions and not what we deem we can afford to purify ourselves.

A Believer cannot carry out the commands of Allah (swt) with regard to Prayers, Zakat and Haj without following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

I am going to to quote a few Ayahs of the Quran to underline the Qurannic message of following the Prophet's Way (Sunnah)

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- 62:2

“Whatever the Prophet (Pbuh) bids you, you must do, and refrain from everything that he forbids you.” (59:7)

Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them. 24:63

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those charged with authority among you. Therefore, if there is a difference of opinion among you in any matter, refer it back to Allah and His Prophet, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day." (4:5)

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). 4:80

Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. 3:32

[QUOTE]
And he only takes the formulas of the teacher as informal reference, not as something to follow blindly.

And he only takes the formulas of the teacher as informal reference
[/QUOTE]

How wrong could you be! They are not informal references but binding commands. Like ‘How to perform prayers and haj and how to calculate Zakat.

[QUOTE]
Indeed, the background against which we shud give our test has changed drastically over the course of years: from pre-medievel to post-modernism. And often you will see that examples age as well, but the textbook (the formulas/ the subject matter) remains as it is
[/QUOTE]

For whatever age it is the message of Islam will remain the same. It will be adapted only by the Method of what Allah (swt) had taught the Prophet (saw) and he in return taught us. Just because we have entered post-modernism doesn’t mean that we have to ‘divorce’ the Prophet’s (saw) teaching and explanation of the Quran to meet our ‘requirements’ but rather whatever ‘age’ we are in, we have to adjust our lifestyle to that of the Prophet’s methodology.

Allah (swt) has clearly stated in the ‘pre-medievel’ (according to you) times that:

"Today I have perfected for you your Religion and completed My Favor upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as your Religion." (5:3):

Even from thousand years from now the Believers will have to perform the Prayers,give Zakaat and perform Haj the same way the Prophet did only the difference from now maybe the mode of transport (hyper-sonic ?)

No doubt he had to convey the Divine Message but it was also his duty to act upon it and to explain it to the people. His actions and explanations are a source of guidance forever. His sayings, actions, practices and explanations are a source of light for every Muslim in every age.

"If any one contends with the Prophet even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge." 4: 110

The Qur'an while pressing the Muslims to obey the Prophet, goes a step further when it announces that the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is above all the limitations of time and space. He is the last Prophet and is a Messenger of Allah for the whole of humanity for all time to come.

Sunnah and Hadith are nothing but a reflection of the personality of the Prophet, who is to be obeyed at every cost.

Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. 3:31 -32

If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! 4:115

"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger, - for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever." 72:23

cont'd

[QUOTE]
As for the wisdom part. Of course, your maths teacher teaches you wisdom as well. as far as the 'book' in the ayah goes it is meant the literal text, the 'wisdom' might be the 'example' he gives, but then again as I've mentioned the bright student is the one who explores solutions using his insight and the basic text. Anyhow, on the other hand one can justifiably argue that the wisdom is also concealed in the Book as well. This is a figure of speech called tautology.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t believe that this makes much sense!

What do you mean that “wisdom might be the ‘example’…….”

Why the vagueness? So you are not sure what is meant by ‘wisdom’ in the Quran. I hope that this vagueness is not intentional.

So you think that there is a possibility the “bright student is the one who explores solutions using his insight and the basic text” will reach at a better understanding of the Quran than the ‘teacher’ who Allah (swt) says the He (Allah) had taught him (the Prophet (saw).

Of course! Allah says so in the Quran that the Prophet (saw) says/does nothing from his own desires but what Allah (swt) has taught him to.

By the Star when it goes down, - Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: 53:1-4

It is well known that any Hadith or so-called Sunnah which clashes with the Quran is declared to be fabricated.

So it is imperative on all the believers to follow the Prophet’s way in the light of Quran than to their own interpretation of the Quran which is bound to be flawed due to lack of full knowledge. Due to personal preferences and dispositions every one will interpret to his own understanding.

Can you visualize the confusion? Sheer distortion!

[QUOTE]
Remains the issue of accepting the Prophet as judge in disputes: Don't you think that the Prophet will base his decisions on the Qur'an? Or do you think that his decision will be something different than what the Quran states and such requires people to write these down?
[/QUOTE]

Of course the Prophet’s (saw) actions and sayings will always be in line with the Quran, so will be his decisions. These decisions are binding for us all due to the following ayahs:

By the Star when it goes down, - Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: 53:1-4

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. 33:36

So these Sayings, practices, approvals and disaprovals had to written so that the believers could practice them up to the end of time.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
It was indeed meant ONLY to provoke thoughts NeScio and per my understanding of the subject at that time.

The simple concept to grasp here is.. if you don't find it in the Qur'an the way you are used to.. maybe you are used to things the wrong way.. don't doubt the Qur'an.. doubt your practices.. The Qur'an is the Criterion... The process of reading the Qur'an shouldn't stop.. it's the cornerstone to linking with Allah.

So if you think u don't find 2.5% mentioned in the Qur'an.. maybe the 2.5% is a cooked up figure and giving charity as Zakat is how much u can spare to give in Allah's way .. just one of the ways to purify yourself... not all.

P.S. if you'd make an original post once in a while rehman1, i'd 'endorse' you too :)
[/QUOTE]

Auzoo Bilahee Minashae'taan er Rajeem.

PakistaniAbroad/ NeSCio/others like-minded

Just to clarify your positions; what do think is the best option from the three possibilities given below?:

1) “The duty of the Prophet (saw) was only to convey the message and nothing more was required from him.

2) He had not only to convey the message but also to act upon it and to explain it. But all that was for the specified period and after his death Qur'an is sufficient to guide humanity.

3) No doubt he had to convey the Divine Message but it was also his duty to act upon it and to explain it to the people. His actions and explanations are a source of guidance forever. His sayings, actions, practices and explanations are a source of light for every Muslim in every age.”

Personally I firmly believe in the third option.

The Prophet was ONLY a warner out of many earlier warners sent to deliver Allah's Message:

[5:99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

He was only a warner..

[27:92] And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ' astray, then say: I am only one of the warners.

We have to Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger in what he brought..

[64:12] So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

[24:54] Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Messenger but clear delivering (of the message).

Could it be more clear?? I don't think so.. Obeying the prohpet is obeying the message he was supposed to deliver.. NOTHING more.. we are not to emulate the way he brushed his teeth or went about his daily routine.. these are not matters of faith.. what matters is inside The Book.. Al-Qur'an.. therein lies the blueprint which the Messenger conveyed..

Now it's upto us to read it.. follow it.. obey the messenger .. and not get deceived by the man written Books and diversions that divide us into sects and makes a mockery out of our great religion.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
The Prophet was **ONLY
* a warner out of many earlier warners sent to deliver Allah's Message:

[5:99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.

[5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

He was only a warner..

[27:92] And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ' astray, then say: I am only one of the warners.

We have to Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger in what he brought..

[64:12] So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

[24:54] Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Messenger but clear delivering (of the message).

Could it be more clear?? I don't think so.. Obeying the prohpet is obeying the message he was supposed to deliver.. NOTHING more.. we are not to emulate the way he brushed his teeth or went about his daily routine.. these are not matters of faith.. what matters is inside The Book.. Al-Qur'an.. therein lies the blueprint which the Messenger conveyed..

Now it's upto us to read it.. follow it.. obey the messenger .. and not get deceived by the man written Books and diversions that divide us into sects and makes a mockery out of our great religion.
[/QUOTE]

In other words have you opted for the first option? 1) “The duty of the Prophet (saw) was only to convey the message and nothing more was required from him.]

As you are justing quoting single Ayahs; should I too say: "Context please.. ALWAYS."

Allah showed great kindness to the believers whom He sent a Messenger to them from among themselves to recite His Signs to them and purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom , even though before that they were clearly misguided. (Surat al- Imran, 164)

Can you clarify what do you understand with the word (Hikmah) Wisdom that the Prophet (saw) is commanded to teach besides the Book?

hehehe … i find it hysterical :slight_smile: i think no body else found it funny besides me… I dont think PA knows the meaning of it … good one :k:…
-Salman

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
It was indeed meant ONLY to provoke thoughts NeScio and per my understanding of the subject at that time.

The simple concept to grasp here is.. if you don't find it in the Qur'an the way you are used to.. maybe you are used to things the wrong way.. don't doubt the Qur'an.. doubt your practices.. The Qur'an is the Criterion... The process of reading the Qur'an shouldn't stop.. it's the cornerstone to linking with Allah.

So if you think u don't find 2.5% mentioned in the Qur'an.. maybe the 2.5% is a cooked up figure and giving charity as Zakat is how much u can spare to give in Allah's way .. just one of the ways to purify yourself... not all.

P.S. if you'd make an original post once in a while rehman1, i'd 'endorse' you too :)
[/QUOTE]

PakistaniAbroad - I think you better have a hard look again at what you have written above and its implications!

[QUOTE]
So if you think u don't find 2.5% mentioned in the Qur'an.. maybe the 2.5% is a cooked up figure and giving charity as Zakat is how much u can spare to give in Allah's way.....
[/QUOTE]

I don't think any one will find how many Rakaats are for Fajr prayers, Zuhr prayers and likewise for other prayers in the Quran (as they are not there). So going by your logic they may have been cooked up, and now anyone can pray as many Rakaats which one's mood or circumstance allow. If one is tried at night time - 2 rakaats will do and Fajr time one being fresh can pray 5 Rakaats.

Is that what your advocating?

It's nothing but advocacy for sheer innovation! I think you qualify as the best example of " what happens to those who abandon the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw)".

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *

As you are justing quoting single Ayahs; should I too say: "Context please.. ALWAYS."
[/quote]

Are any of the verses quoted out of context?? Does their meaning change if taken into context? if not then it's efficient to post only the relevant verses..

[quote]
Can you clarify what do you understand with the word (Hikmah) Wisdom that the Prophet (saw) is commanded to teach besides the Book?
[/QUOTE]

let's have another thread to discuss what this Wisdom is..

[quote]
I don't think any one will find how many Rakaats are for Fajr prayers, Zuhr prayers and likewise for other prayers in the Quran (as they are not there). So going by your logic they must have been cooked up, and now anyone can pray as many Rakaats which one's mood or circumstance allow. If one is tried at night time - 2 rakaats will do and Fajr time one being fresh can pray 5 Rakaats.

Is that what your advocating?

It's nothing but advocacy for sheer innovation! I think you qualify as the best example of " what happens to those who abandon the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw)".
[/quote]

That's precisely what i'm advocating.. that Allah doesn't need quantified supplications in some maigcal order.. outside of which your supplications would be rendered 'incomplete' or 'void'... and once again this is an offshoot of the discussion so feel free to discuss in some other thread.. and let this one be about understanding Qur'an by learning and reading it and not subject to other literature written much later..

just to continue on a ayah u quote:

"Today I have perfected for you your Religion and completed My Favor upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as your Religion." (5:3):

This ayah states that at that particular moment of time, the religion was completed...in other words nothing after that time has the right to be added to the religion called islam. So how come the written Hadith are 'added' to islam after about 200 years after this ayah. there are some other thing which follow logically from this ayah, but for now this suffices

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NeSCio: *
just to continue on a ayah u quote:

"Today I have perfected for you your Religion and completed My Favor upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as your Religion." (5:3):

This ayah states that at that particular moment of time, the religion was completed...in other words nothing after that time has the right to be added to the religion called islam. So how come the written Hadith are 'added' to islam after about 200 years after this ayah. there are some other thing which follow logically from this ayah, but for now this suffices
[/QUOTE]

the hadeeth written in the books are the hadeeth that belongs to time before that ayah...

^:smack: this discussion has been beaten to death by now. For a reply to this you might want to just look up old threads on this topic (from about more than a year ago)

Wama Alaina Illal Balaagh.