UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

picoico
I don't know what Kindergarten you went to, but it mine we learned never to back down from unprovoked attack. We learned NEVER to offend for the sake of offense...and even at such a young age we learned how sensitive certain topics are and how to tread lightly around them. And this included, of course, religion.

The universal right of the offended is to express their offense...and hopefully the expression will be only commensurate to the offense. What you are suggesting is that people, in effect, shut up and go away. Not going to happen. Nor is that very tolerant, btw. But this isn't really about tolerance...
**Anyone who wants instant fame knows to target Muslims, and as usual, they'll respond with riots, claims of discrimination, etc (more protest dealing with a short film than the treatment of Palestinians (Muslim brothers and sisters).
Learn from your mistakes and stop perpetuating this trend. It's supply and demand. Stop giving these films notoriety and they'll fade away.

You become part of the problem when you perpetuate it.**

Yes...the question is Have YOU? Or are you at least aware of the surrounding narrative that the movie is part and parcel of? Or are you defending something you have little interest in simply because "free speech" is under attack?

**
I don't have to see the film to know I respect the right of someone to make their opinion known, no matter how people take offensive to it. It's OUR choice as to how we respond. Likewise, I have passed no positive or negative judgment on the quality or contents of the film, you however, have. You made a claim, I haven't. Your's is a clear bias.
**
It's silly to suggest that we can watch this film in isolation (as brain-dead as it is), while ignoring the film makers agenda which is quite transparent.

Please show me how Herc and Krishna are accepted as Prophets (and not GOD/demi-GOD), and then we'll talk.
Jesus/Esa is considered a God, yet Islam considers him a prophet. Considering that many non Abrahamic religions are non-prophetic, avatars may often be likened to them as they are divinely influenced, yet mortal (and these avatars come to serve a purpose for humanity, to guide them on a better path).
Likewise, we can look at Zoroastrianism and ask if Islam considers Zoroaster (Zoroastrianism predating Islam and influencing Judaism). So yes, show me where Islam accepts any such avatar's/prophets. It doesn't. It accepts by name, only those who existed within the middle east, and only those who were taken from Jewish tradition.

What are the other factors? You singled Islam out...so whom is being willingly ignorant?
**I said that Islam was one of the factors. Choosing to negate it's influence (and their perception of Islam), on those who committed these crimes is sheer ignorance. If one, no matter how twisted they are, can find justification for violence in their religious beliefs, we HAVE to examine them, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

The way I see it, the more people complain about this film, the more uncomfortable they are with their own beliefs.

Therefore:

No one attacked you, no one slandered you personally. Let's move along and set our priorities to things that really matter. Instead of complaining about a movie, let's direct that energy to more important things, like genocide.

Or we can act as stubborn children and continue on this tirade. The choice is your's.**

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

I did watch the film. I found it to be poorly constructed and nothing but propaganda.

However, we could not expect more from a 15 minute film. I would have been surprised to see a detailed explanation of the basis of these verses or a denunciation of the speakers in this film by other Muslims. For it to have been clear and balanced, so called "moderate," Muslims should have obviously been interviewed.

I find it laughable that such a poor film was given such notice, any only through the actions of those protesting it! The film does not meet any journalistic or documentary standards, yet so many know of it! This is only because of those who claimed it was so offensive.

It's the protesters' fault that this film was seen.
And I still support the filmmakers right to have made it, though he's an idiot.

This film was offensive to me too, because it was given so much notoriety that it did not receive, and mostly, because the events detailed in it, actually happened.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film


**

Riots as Usual? Looks like you're already a victim of the non-thinking Wilders et. all exhbit. Yes, there are protests and violence done by the usual suspects...the same people who riot and protest when Islam is not a factor, like when BB got shot. By far and wide the protests have been non-events.

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Learn from your mistakes and stop perpetuating this trend. It's supply and demand. Stop giving these films notoriety and they'll fade away.

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I don't think so. I mean, given how low key the protests have been this time around, it seems like if only 10 Muslims protest violently, they'll get all the media. The remainder shall be, as always, ignored.

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You become part of the problem when you perpetuate it.

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With head in sand, and pretending like Muslims are overreacting (what reaction?)...seems like the only people perpetuating it are those mindless ones who are ready to jump whenever they feel "freedom of expression" is under threat. Muslims make a great boogey...

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I don't have to see the film to know I respect the right of someone to make their opinion known, no matter how people take offensive to it.

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How quaint. It doesn't fly. Speech is a mere medium, and to defend the right to use the medium is an empty meta-argument. It is the content of the speech that needs to be discussed...to defend free speech in general is to defend offensive and inflammatory speech. Respectful people often distance themselves from such speech, and not resort to a knee-jerk defense of speech as a medium.

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** It's OUR choice as to how we respond. Likewise, I have passed no positive or negative judgment on the quality or contents of the film, you however, have. You made a claim, I haven't. Your's is a clear bias.**

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...of course I am biased...as biased as a Jew is against a neo-Nazi...since when is bias a bad thing?

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Jesus/Esa is considered a God, yet Islam considers him a prophet.

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And Jews consider him to be a normal man...yes, yes, there is conflict among the Abrahamic faiths, which I thought you excluded.

As for the others, the official Islamic stance is neutrality...Zoroaster may well have been a Prophet...as Krishna...but as with the other Abrahamic faiths, this may not fit the official line from the respective faiths which hold these people as sacred figures. You're not aware of the fact that Islam proclaims many more (unnamed) Prophets than those explicitly named?

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I said that Islam was one of the factors. Choosing to negate it's influence (and their perception of Islam), on those who committed these crimes is sheer ignorance.

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And what is it when the actions of the rest of those who have different perceptions of Islam are ignored? Ignorance would be understandable...almost acceptable...in comparison.

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The way I see it, the more people complain about this film, the more uncomfortable they are with their own beliefs.

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Shrugs...now who is the biased one? On the contrary...some people simply take their beliefs seriously, and don't take such nonsense as defensible by some empty ideal of free speech.

**
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**
No one attacked you, no one slandered you personally.
**
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Of course they have...blanket statements against Islam ARE blanket statements of those Muslims who strive to follow it. And you're delusional if you think these aren't personal.

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** Let's move along and set our priorities to things that really matter. Instead of complaining about a movie, let's direct that energy to more important things, like genocide.**

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Well golly jee...when you raise the bar that high, let's shut down all the fourms here and only talk about genocide...rolls eyes...

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Or we can act as stubborn children and continue on this tirade. The choice is your's.
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We're all free to stop whenever we wish.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Freedom of Speech this Freedom of speech that. Why don't one of your ****s go into a crowded Movie Theater and yell "Fire, fire" on the top of your voice? Lets see how much *ing freedom of speech you have then.

To the among you, who do not get my point. Freedom is speech is actively limited, by governments, media and law enforcement to protect the common good. It is illegal and you will serve prison time for yelling fire in a crowded area if there is no fire. What happened to freedom of speech then?

Its a simple concept people actively ignore to fulfill their political agenda. With freedom of speech comes the responsibility to use that freedom of speech judiciously.

Every single OECD country has hundreds of laws that limit freedom of speech. The most common ones are disclosure of classified information, information that could lead to the death of their troops, spreading propoganda against the state, treason, holocaust laws etc. etc.

Yet there is no mention of these acts because it meets the political agenda of individuals.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Islamist is another made up term by media to blame Islam for some bad actions of its followers, this is what i understood from your explanation.

What would you call a jewish terrorist, a Judaist?

And talking about starting threads about attack on israili civillians.....i can promise you i'd do that if you only promise me to start a thread everytime there's an attack palestinians by israilis.

You'll have to do more work than I as the rate of attacks on Palestinians is much more higher than the attacks on Israilies.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Freedom of expression my foot. A radio channel by muslims in Europe was shut down because of some naats and qawallis. Hypocracy unparalleled.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

^ that is a surprise to me. Why would a station be shut down because of qawallis? were they using some inciting language?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

The whole idea of him saying that ISLAM and QURAN are the problems, when infact, it is the people who committ acts of terror.

How can you label an entire religion and the divine text to incite hate and violence?

If that's not spreading hate, then i dono what is.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

^ his whole point is that Quran asks its followers to commit these atrocities and in proof he quotes certain verses.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Out of context possibly? W/out the proper understanding of what is being said?

Then how is his interpretation any better than those who use the same verses to justify committing terror?

2-sides of the same coin.

That is why i said that if he really wanted to address the issue, then he should have made those people the focus of the entire film, not the divine text that millions of muslims revere as the word of Allah. It's like sticking a fork in an already bleeding eye.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

that it is. quite stupid way I agree. I thought of it as his defiance and anger at the aftermath of murder of Van Gough.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Fitna insulting to Islam?


Female circumcision (female mutalation) , beheadings and stonings done by many in the name of Islam is not insulting?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

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However in the case of beheadings and stonings, the question is.....did they deserve it?
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Do you think someone who is having an extra-marital affair deserves to be stoned/hanged/beheaded?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

"Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die,"

In other words, Yes. These are our customs and laws. If Islamic law states that someone should be stoned/hanged/beheaded for adultery, by all means it should be implemented. Simply because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them wrong.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

What's wrong or not is not ur business either Mr.CM. If someone has an extramarital affairs, it's their and their spouses' business. None of your or your religion's DAMNED business. You have no right to poke ur nose into other ppl's business. Extramarital affairs doesn't affect you. They affect the person's immediate family and its their business to settle the issues

Simply bcoz ur "holy book" says it is so bad and punishable that way, it doesn't mean it is.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Because our holy book say it is bad is the very reason the laws exist. It is rather simple. You follow the rules of the country to live in. You don't go to the US and then marry 10 different women because your religion allows it. In the US having more than one wife - polygamy is against the law. You must obey the laws of the country you live in. Oddly enough that is part of Shariah.

If you don't like the rules, leave. We all know how many "muslims" have left countries because they did not agree with the rule set. These Human Right Defenders (laughable) are quite famous.

Take your advice, as the actions of Muslims and those of Islamic law are none of your "DAMNED business. You have no right to poke ur nose into other ppl's business. " Our laws doesn't affect you.

Simple as that. Either take your own advice or be a hypocrite.

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

So islam is a "nation' now. If a person wants to marry 10 wives, he can leave the US and go to a country which allows such perverted practices. Can a muslim leave islam? Does a muslim( who is forced into islam before he can think) have the right to leave islam?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Firstly Shariah law is implemented at a national level, yes in that case the law is that of a nation-state. Secondly Islam is not a nation. The concept is called Ummah. That is why when a Palestinian dies or an Iraqi, Afghani, Kashmiri suffers we all feel it.

Every man is free to do as he pleases as long as he is willing to live with the consequences. Cause and effect the very foundation our lives revolve around.

Now a question, since you don't consider yourself to be a muslim, why do you care what we do in our home? Aren't you prying and poking your nose in our business that doesn't concern you?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Quran doesn't allow muslims to leave islam, as everyone knows.
As for your **question, **a consider myself a human being and so I care about every human being. Hence when everyone(human) who is turned into a muslim at an age when they can't think for themselves and then forced to obey such ridiculous laws, and then killed brutally for no crime at all, it is a crime against humanity,and so it is my business to speak against it.

EVEN if someone converted to islam voluntarily and then sentenced to death for such absurd reasons, do you think they deserve such a harsh punishment for their folly?

Re: UN Condemns the Dutch Film

Actually the question of leaving the faith is very simple. You are allowed to leave Islam but as I said before you should be ready to deal with the consequences, which are manifold not limited to death.

Sadly my dear there is no crime for following the laws of the land. You should know this very well. After all slave owners still live freely to this day in the west.

Also you are taking a very Islamic (ie collective) view of the situation. You stated yourself the actions of an individual in the case of adultery is between him/her and the family. So that does not include you. So by your own words you should mind your own business.