U.S. tank aimed at hotel, no outgoing fire-reporter

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
So let's realize what is happening here...

There is a freakin' war going on here and the journalists think this is a ballgame and they have the bleacher seats, and those tanks are just ball players and the worst that can happen is that they get hit with a foul ball.

In a tank, it is loud and noisy. The thing is buttoned up tight, and they are looking through periscopes to see everything. A bunch of photographers are hanging off the balcony with long lenses and the light is glinting off of them and to the 20 year old kid in the tank it looks like the report of a rifle or worse. Let us not forget that a number of high ranking Iraqi officials have holed up in this same hotel using the journalists as quasi-human shields, and that bad guys are hanging off other buildings shooting.

It is a crying shame that journalists were killed, but, what are they thinking? I think the 20 year old kid in the tank should have thought twice, but the expectation that a WAR should be this hyper-controlled meticulous endeavor where the US has it's every move replayed on videotape and debated by every armchair critic, while Saddam's henchmen can engage in anything they please is just bizzare.

Here is a clue. When war comes, run away. Stay away from people with weapons, or anyplace that there are weapons. The journalists hanging off balconies have forgotten that war is inherently a chaotic violent affair. It is not a spectator sport, it is lethal, and it is for keeps. The 20 year old kid in the tank is paid to kill bad people and keep his butt alive. He is a human being and he can and will make mistakes. It's not his fault, he is doing his best under difficult circumstances. Blame the politicians, blame the UN, but don't expect the impossible.
[/QUOTE]

i say blame USA and its troops [who are more animals than humans] :-)
if they are bound to make mistakes then hell 911 was a mistake aswell :-) and boy such mistakes can happen again :-)

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
So let's realize what is happening here...

There is a freakin' war going on here and the journalists think this is a ballgame .....

In a tank, it is loud and noisy. ....

Here is a clue. When war comes, run away. Stay away from people with weapons, or anyplace that there are weapons. ....
[/QUOTE]

(Aha myvoice i see you've turned up as your alterego ohiogay..)

shouldn't the above be in the joke forum.....

Entityparadigm .. you took the words right outa my mouth.. the americans are just a bunch of trigger happy morons.

Their day will come, their time will come when they face the wrath of the ummah, inshallah.

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MASTER T: *
Their day will come, their time will come when they face the wrath of the ummah, inshallah.
[/QUOTE]
So young, so naive.

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
So young, so naive.
[/QUOTE]

ahan ... and the wheel of civilizations keep churning ... the fresh and young will one day rule ... dont u believe? (the cycles may last decadeds or centuries) ... like the egyptians ... like the romans ... like the muslims ... like the americans ... like the ....

25

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

You need to brush up on your reading skills or on your English language translations. The BBC Reporter said he did not hear a shot. That doesn't mean that shots weren't fired does it?
[/QUOTE]

Myvoice I assume that you were at the Palestine Hotel as you know more and can even prove exactly what was the reason for their coward and with 100% intended attack. This is not what IM saiyng this is what the press reporters say from Germany, Spain, Austria, Britain, Arab States.....do you need a friend of yours dead to understand what a bunch of *§%&$ they are?!
I think not even that will help you, only GOD I believe!

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
So let's realize what is happening here...

There is a freakin' war going on here and the journalists think this is a ballgame and they have the bleacher seats, and those tanks are just ball players and the worst that can happen is that they get hit with a foul ball.

In a tank, it is loud and noisy. The thing is buttoned up tight, and they are looking through periscopes to see everything. A bunch of photographers are hanging off the balcony with long lenses and the light is glinting off of them and to the 20 year old kid in the tank it looks like the report of a rifle or worse. Let us not forget that a number of high ranking Iraqi officials have holed up in this same hotel using the journalists as quasi-human shields, and that bad guys are hanging off other buildings shooting.

It is a crying shame that journalists were killed, but, what are they thinking? I think the 20 year old kid in the tank should have thought twice, but the expectation that a WAR should be this hyper-controlled meticulous endeavor where the US has it's every move replayed on videotape and debated by every armchair critic, while Saddam's henchmen can engage in anything they please is just bizzare.

Here is a clue. When war comes, run away. Stay away from people with weapons, or anyplace that there are weapons. The journalists hanging off balconies have forgotten that war is inherently a chaotic violent affair. It is not a spectator sport, it is lethal, and it is for keeps. The 20 year old kid in the tank is paid to kill bad people and keep his butt alive. He is a human being and he can and will make mistakes. It's not his fault, he is doing his best under difficult circumstances. Blame the politicians, blame the UN, but don't expect the impossible.
[/QUOTE]

Ohio, stop being so naive and displaying yourself as a 5 year old kid.
We have here bombs who precisely catch their targets. Like moving objects and buildings. On the other hand we have bombs dropping in civilians area. These are the same smart bombs and your GOvernment shuts up and even has the courage to blame it on IRAQI Regime.
Then we see a tank recognizing shots from a building. Where it is impossible to shoot and target on this tank from. Coz of buildings inbetween (Located South from Hotel Palestine!). ("Quoting" a German reporter who was at Palestine HOtEL at that time)
Can you give me an explaination for this?

27

Ali,

Stop insulting me when you have no idea what you are talking about.

First, tall buildings are the worst for tanks, as there is very little armor on the top of a tank. Second, we have heard about Russian Koronet Anti-Tank weapons being used in Iraq. They have an effective range of over a mile, and are very deadly when aimed down on a tank. We have also heard about Iraqi's firing from behind women and children, and from forbidden structures such as schools and hospitals. How niave YOU ARE to believe that that could not happen as a tank is crossing a bridge that is one of the most strategic structures in Baghdad.

Your illusion of war is deeply flawed. The American soldiers are remarkably well trained and highly motivated. They are also scared 20 year old exhausted adrenaline filled kids who are given incredible responsibility.

Journalists cannot hang off of balconies and treat the hotel like the bleacher seats at a football game. It is patently stupid to believe that mistakes are not made, and that absolute perfection can be maintained in the heat of battle. The journalist go to Iraq to make a big career move. They are very well paid, and many have never been in a war zone before. The 20 year old kid in the tank gets a small pay check and if he does his job well he gets to live to tomorrow.

The illusion of absolute precision is a myth, and frankly everybody really knows it. War is far MORE precise than it was, but it is still a very human affair.

When war comes, run away. If you chose not to, do not whine that you were not warned. If you cannot run, hide, do not hang off balconies hoping to get a Pulitzer.

EntityParadigm and Master T--little keyboard Jihadis. Learn more about the world before you rant.

28

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Ali,

Stop insulting me when you have no idea what you are talking about.

First, tall buildings are the worst for tanks, as there is very little armor on the top of a tank. Second, we have heard about Russian Koronet Anti-Tank weapons being used in Iraq. They have an effective range of over a mile, and are very deadly when aimed down on a tank. We have also heard about Iraqi's firing from behind women and children, and from forbidden structures such as schools and hospitals. How niave YOU ARE to believe that that could not happen as a tank is crossing a bridge that is one of the most strategic structures in Baghdad.

Your illusion of war is deeply flawed. The American soldiers are remarkably well trained and highly motivated. They are also scared 20 year old exhausted adrenaline filled kids who are given incredible responsibility.

Journalists cannot hang off of balconies and treat the hotel like the bleacher seats at a football game. It is patently stupid to believe that mistakes are not made, and that absolute perfection can be maintained in the heat of battle. The journalist go to Iraq to make a big career move. They are very well paid, and many have never been in a war zone before. The 20 year old kid in the tank gets a small pay check and if he does his job well he gets to live to tomorrow.

The illusion of absolute precision is a myth, and frankly everybody really knows it. War is far MORE precise than it was, but it is still a very human affair.

When war comes, run away. If you chose not to, do not whine that you were not warned. If you cannot run, hide, do not hang off balconies hoping to get a Pulitzer.

EntityParadigm and Master T--little keyboard Jihadis. Learn more about the world before you rant.
[/QUOTE]

First of all I dont see that as an insult.
Secondly, ýou are absolutely right. YOu must be there at the top of the Palestine Hotel and have seen everything with your eyes.
I dont know where you get your informations from maybe RUMSFELD personally but what you are talking about is sheer nonsense. Reporters are stating that it is impossible to have a full view of the southern part where the Tank was located and you are denied it with your own made up facts.
Secondly there where shots not missile or rocket noises heard (Pentagon says).
Why should they leave when there is full guarantee or there should be full guarantee about where the reporters are located? Why do they know where is Saddams location when they bomb down a building in a civilian area but mistakely attacked the Palestine building. Ohio you are really in a dream world. This is not a computer game like Command and Conquer (RED ALERT) or Ghost Reckon by TOM CLANCY!

29

Ali,

I live in a military community. A huge portion of the people who are here in my community attend the US Naval War College, or the Undersea Systems Center, or the Officer Candidate School, or are foreign officers attending specialized schools, or work at Raytheon on sonar systems. Rumsfeld and I have not spoken in a few weeks. There are literally hundreds of Generals, Admirals, Majors and Colonels who attend my church, have children in my daughters school, and live in my neighborhood. Additionally I used to work for the government. My information is quite good. :)

The fact that you use the words "full guarantee" shows an utter and complete ignorance of the military. Apparently you spend your time on computer games. I don't own any.

As for your presumption on shots or noises. A kid in a tank cannot hear, but he can see. He is in a big metal can with two periscopes. A flash of light, such as a reflection off a camera lens can easily be mistaken for a missle launch. Long camera lenses look like shoulder fired anti-tank weapons. Was it a mistake? Yes. Welcome to war. If they were not willing to take the risk, they should not have been there.

Perhaps we have impressed you so much that you expect perfection! Not there yet, but working on it....

30

:hehe: :rotfl: :hehe: :rotfl:
explainations, justifications… NEVER ADMIT WRONGS.

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Ali,

I live in a military community. A huge portion of the people who are here in my community attend the US Naval War College, or the Undersea Systems Center, or the Officer Candidate School, or are foreign officers attending specialized schools, or work at Raytheon on sonar systems. Rumsfeld and I have not spoken in a few weeks. There are literally hundreds of Generals, Admirals, Majors and Colonels who attend my church, have children in my daughters school, and live in my neighborhood. Additionally I used to work for the government. My information is quite good. :)

The fact that you use the words "full guarantee" shows an utter and complete ignorance of the military. Apparently you spend your time on computer games. I don't own any.

As for your presumption on shots or noises. A kid in a tank cannot hear, but he can see. He is in a big metal can with two periscopes. A flash of light, such as a reflection off a camera lens can easily be mistaken for a missle launch. Long camera lenses look like shoulder fired anti-tank weapons. Was it a mistake? Yes. Welcome to war. If they were not willing to take the risk, they should not have been there.

Perhaps we have impressed you so much that you expect perfection! Not there yet, but working on it....
[/QUOTE]

Ohio then it's utterly stupid from me to discuss with you on any issue that would go against your Government. Dont you think?!
I could even show you vids, pics, live images and you would say it's all made up.
So there is no need to debate on things where you will always be influenced by a thrid party to admit it is the other way round.
The same goes for those who had to live under Saddams Regime!
You see some similarities?!

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
...
I live in a military community. A huge portion of the people who are here in my community attend the US Naval War College, or the Undersea Systems Center, or the Officer Candidate School, or are foreign officers attending specialized schools, or work at Raytheon on sonar systems. Rumsfeld and I have not spoken in a few weeks. There are literally hundreds of Generals, Admirals, Majors and Colonels who attend my church, have children in my daughters school, and live in my neighborhood. Additionally I used to work for the government. My information is quite good. :)....
[/QUOTE]

Now I know what to expect from you... phew. Thanks for telling us where you come from :)

33

Ahhhh Boys....

Don't make assumptions....

I attended Kent State, where American students were shot, protested on behalf of migrant workers with Caezar Chavez, and worked for the only Lebanese (Christian) Congresswoman in the House (Democrat). I spent a career doing government relations afterward. And I did not vote for Bush.... As you may well imagine, I know much more about my government than you ever will.

If you think that you know Americans, you don't. Your left wing brainwashing allows you to see the slice of America that you love to hate. You can seize on any detail and expand it into a conspiracy theory and PROOF that Americans are evil. You are looking through a soda straw.

You can take a battlefield incident, twist it around instead of understanding that some measure of personal responsibility must be taken, and that when the US recommended that people evacuate Iraq, that it was not just hollow advice.

34

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**If you think that you know Americans, you don't. Your left wing brainwashing allows you to see the slice of America that you love to hate. You can seize on any detail and expand it into a conspiracy theory and PROOF that Americans are evil. You are looking through a soda straw. *

Well the same goes for you when it comes to Arabs. Don't you think?

**
You can take a battlefield incident, twist it around instead of understanding that some measure of personal responsibility must be taken, and that when the US recommended that people evacuate Iraq, that it was not just hollow advice. **

Ohio, I think you aint getting the point. Are you? It's not what I'm saying but the 20-40 reporters who where in this building. Do you understand my freaky english?

[/QUOTE]

35

Ali,

“Well the same goes for you when it comes to Arabs. Don’t you think?”

I am here on your turf dude… My straw is getting wider…

Your point on the reporters-- they do not see a reason that they were shot at. My point, they should be grown up enough to realize that the Palestine Hotel is not a luxury box at the theatre. A lot worse could have happened if there had been a really bad firefight.

You expect the US to be responsible for every bullet, while ANYTHING that the Iraqi’s do is fine. It is a gross double standard.

And a little late breaking news:

Gilligan casts doubt on source of hotel attack

Ciar Byrne
Tuesday April 8, 2003

Palestine Hotel: two journalists died after today’s attack

The BBC’s defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan has cast doubt on whether the missile that killed two journalists in Baghdad today was fired by a US tank, speculating that Iraqi soldiers may have launched the lethal attack.
The US military has admitted one of its tanks fired on the Palestine Hotel, the centre for most of the foreign media in the Iraqi capital.

However, Gilligan said reports from central command in Qatar were starting to suggest US tank fire was not responsible for the deaths of Reuters cameraman Taras Protsyuk and Jose Couso, a cameraman with the Spanish TV network Telecinco.

Three other Reuters journalists and an Abu Dhabi TV staff member were injured when an explosion hit their room on the 15th floor of the hotel.

“I may be right in saying we’re hearing from central command that they’re starting to retract their apology for this incident,” Gilligan told Radio 5 Live’s drivetime show.

He added that after examining the scene he concluded it was virtually impossible for the US tank to have fired on the 15th floor room.

"I have to say I rather doubt it and, having been underneath it and looking up now just before it got dark at the hole again in the side of the hotel, I still doubt it.

"For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it’s only the masonry that’s been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel.

“Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don’t think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons.”

Gilligan said although American tank fire hit other parts of the hotel, it was possible an Iraqi attack was responsible for the journalists’ deaths.

"Now the Americans have admitted they fired at the hotel. There was damage to other parts of the hotel.

"This was the main one the 15th floor room, where the two people were killed and three injured, but there was also damage to rooms on the 14th and 17th floors.

"Now that might have been the responsibility of the Americans.

"This might have been the responsibility of someone else, maybe some Saddam Fedayeen with a rocket-propelled grenade, who did not like the fact the Reuters guy was shooting footage from his balcony at the time of the attack.

“That is pure speculation. I just think there must still be some doubt over this area.”

36

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**Ali,

“Well the same goes for you when it comes to Arabs. Don’t you think?”

I am here on your turf dude… My straw is getting wider…

Your point on the reporters-- they do not see a reason that they were shot at. My point, they should be grown up enough to realize that the Palestine Hotel is not a luxury box at the theatre. A lot worse could have happened if there had been a really bad firefight.

You expect the US to be responsible for every bullet, while ANYTHING that the Iraqi’s do is fine. It is a gross double standard.**

I cant remember when the IRAQI’s dropped bombs on American citizen. Can you? Or Journalists. Now do you wanna also believe that the same GILLIGAN was at the Al Jazeera tower and saw an Iraqi missile fired by Saddam personally. Oh come on!

Not my words…(translated)
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/29/0,1872,2041021,00.html

Now suddenly this Gilligan has doubts as soon as Americans come into Baghdad. Strange eah?

37

"Now suddenly this Gilligan has doubts as soon as Americans come into Baghdad. Strange eah?"

Not strange at all. It was war, and there is an inevitable chaos. That is what I have been saying all along. Jounalists are quick to leave their objectivity behind when they think they personally have been wronged.

38

Question is....

Why on earth would G.I.'s target journalists when it brings the entire world opinion on their backside? Makes no sense whatsoever.

39

You guys can talk all the crap you want about bombing by mistake or by design. I think the widow’s words say a lot more than anything put out by spin doctors or ‘embedded reporters’ ever will:

Arab fury over al-Jazeera death

In the evening, al-Jazeera broadcast a moving and powerful interview with Mr Ayoub’s wife, Dima, in which she paid tribute to her husband.*** “Eventually everyone will forget him, but we will never forget him. He is with God now,” she said with tears streaming down her face. **

“American forces, British forces are in a war that was claimed to be clean,” the journalist’s widow said via a satellite link to her home in Amman, Jordan. “I cannot see the cleanness in this war. What I see is blood, destruction and shattered hearts.

“The Americans said it was a war against terrorism. Who is doing the terrorism now? Didn’t their radars tell them this is a press office and these are civilian houses? My message to you is that hatred grows more hatred. The Americans are asking why are there suicide bombers, which we do not consider as such, we consider them as martyrs. Let them ask Bush and Blair who targeted their families and friends.

“We are going to fight back. Let Mr Bush know what he sows in Iraq, what he sows in Palestine, what he is going to see is the tip of the iceberg.” *

40

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Question is....

Why on earth would G.I.'s target journalists when it brings the entire world opinion on their backside? Makes no sense whatsoever.
[/QUOTE]

It will make sense to you when you understand the DEMOCRATIC AMERICA!