U.S Marine Kills wounded Iraqi Prisoner

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Of course it wouldn't happen. Neither would these brave martyrs use civilians as human shields, mosques as forts, schools as weapons depots or aid workers as practice for body mutilation.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *
for once...we agree. Couldnt have said it better myself.
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I think Ma Moolis comment shows us a large part of the problem that's going on today in the Muslim world. Denials that fly against fact and truth so blatantly that it leaves those listening taken back. It's as if a large sector of the Muslim world believes that Muslims can do no wrong, that everything is a trick created by the infidels.

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^ Tell me about it. I felt the same reading Ohioguys post.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *

I think Ma Moolis comment shows us a large part of the problem that's going on today in the Muslim world. Denials that fly against fact and truth so blatantly that it leaves those listening taken back. It's as if a large sector of the Muslim world believes that Muslims can do no wrong, that everything is a trick created by the infidels.
[/QUOTE]

In the same way as you think that your army can do no wrong. Ever wondered how many more people were killed in cold blood by the marines. May be hundreds or thousands, who knows.

Is there any difference between the marines carrying out such cold blooded murders and the guys beheading hostages. I don't think so. Both are despicable.

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perhaps you can comment on seminole's comment UTD? i mean i'm only agreeing with him.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *

In the same way as you think that your army can do no wrong. Ever wondered how many more people were killed in cold blood by the marines. May be hundreds or thousands, who knows.

Is there any difference between the marines carrying out such cold blooded murders and the guys beheading hostages. I don't think so. Both are despicable.
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Actually I think many in the U.S. believe the U.S. army can do wrong, you see this by opposition protests some of which were attended by hundred of thousands of people within the U.S. You don't see this in the Muslims world, more often than not you hear excuses justifying the beheadings rather than condemning them.

Is there a difference in what this marine did vs. beheading a hostage? I would say most definitely. On one hand you have a marine who is in the mist of battle who knows that insurgents have blown themselves up and on the other hand you have a group of people who are cutting the throats of innocents who weren't firing a gun at them 2 minutes earlier and are known not to have an explosive device on them. How can you not see the difference?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Is there a difference in what this marine did vs. beheading a hostage?

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No. They're both *******s. Only one killed for breathing, the other was killed for money.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *
Is there any difference between the marines carrying out such cold blooded murders and the guys beheading hostages. I don't think so.
[/QUOTE]

I do.

First, the Marine committed a crime.

Now to the differences. The beheaded hostages had not fired on or threatened the insurgents. Most were performing tasks that would help rebuild the infrastructure of the country (motivated by self-enrichment).

The insurgent shot by the marine had been presumably trying to kill that and/or other marines earlier in the day. The insurgent and the Marine both were motivated to kill one another and were both equipped to do so.

If you have seen any of the beheading videos, I would hope you would make the distinction between methods of killing.

In the unjust shooting method, the man is killed quickly. A beheading appears to take 30 seconds to 1 minute. It's the most awful thing imaginable. The drawn out pain, screams that curdle the blood and continue in some horrifying form even after the windpipe is sawn through. It's a human abomination.

There is a difference between the soldier in combat for days with the enemy, unjustly killing a wounded combatant with whom he's been trading fire-with one bullet. Versus the hostage who has shown no malice toward you, has lived passively as you prisoner for days or weeks and is utlimately butchered like a lamb while the name of God is invoked.

One is a crime on a battlefield involving combatants.

The other is truly a crime against humanity and all that is holy.

I will reiterate that the Marine committed an indefensible crime.

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You can spin it any which way you like but both killed people in cold blood. No difference. The marine did not shoot someone engaged in combat, but injured defenseless person lying on the floor and the marine shouting that the guy was faking death and then shooting him. How is this any different from the ones who carry out the beheading. There is no difference. Spin it as much as you like, the bottom line is the marines carry out murder in cold blood as well. This particular marine got caught. How many others have escaped? Who knows.

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My probelm with these "Abu Graib" moments is multifold:

1) There is a presumption that crimes such as the one apparently commited by this marine are widespread.If this is the case why would the US Military allow embedded reporters?"

2) Incidents such as this are propagandized in the Mulsim world beyond all reason. Military failures are compensated for by propaganda victories.

3) There is a presumption that Muslims would never do this kind of thing. All humans behave differently in combat. Muslim troops would certainly commit as many crimes as US/Christian troops.

4) There is a tendency to extrapolate one incident well beyond reason.

5) Please refer to the Abu Graib threads. No one was more outraged than I was.

6) There is an overwhelming emotional response to things like this in the Muslim world. It is very visceral reponse. But if you ask them would they rather be captured by the US Army, or the Syrian army, in thinking it through, almost every one would conclude that they would be treated more decently by any Western army. There are huge double standards for behavior.

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1) News from embedded reporters is heavily censored. This one was probably leaked. That kevin whatisname is in for it now. Just you watch.

2) Abit like Fox you mean

3) That is no justification for the actions of US troops.

6) After Abu ghraib and G'tmo, i seriously doubt it.

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I have a question for OhioGuy, Seminole and Storch, and this is to educate myself so there is no pun /sarcasm from my end and I will really appreciate a pun /sarcasm-free answer.

Is this the reason that U.S will not join ICJ or that war crime court thingy that Kerry was talking about? i am really curious to know why U.S will not join that while other countries have joined the crime court or whatever it is called. :konfused:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
My probelm with these "Abu Graib" moments is multifold:

1) There is a presumption that crimes such as the one apparently commited by this marine are widespread.If this is the case why would the US Military allow embedded reporters?"

[/quote]

you dont prove anything by this statement. the embedded reporters have roundly been criticised for making biopics instead of actually doing any investigative journalism. since the extent of reporting can and actually WAS muzzled, you do not know whether or not they actually see much beyond what is cinematically sound.

could you tell me if abu ghraib was discovered by an embedded journalists?

[quote]

2) Incidents such as this are propagandized in the Mulsim world beyond all reason. Military failures are compensated for by propaganda victories.

[/quote]

give me a break. your grasp of Muslim media does not go beyond 'al-jazeera', and so with your very, very limited reading of what muslim world media actually is like you are ill equipped to make ANY claim as to what we may or may not do with these incidents.

on the other hand, your partisan, manufactured propaganda machine media is known by everyone here.

[quote]

3) There is a presumption that Muslims would never do this kind of thing. All humans behave differently in combat. Muslim troops would certainly commit as many crimes as US/Christian troops.

[/quote]

great. so you accept that your grunts are as human as anyone else's. i dont care to argue who would be more brutal. we do know your people's brutality that is on display now. all that talk about professionalism in the american military is such BULL.

[quote]

4) There is a tendency to extrapolate one incident well beyond reason.

5) Please refer to the Abu Graib threads. No one was more outraged than I was.

[/quote]

hahahahahahahahahaha... yes, you do sound outraged.

edit: allow me to post one example of how outraged OG is:

about deaths in fallujah: "The "thousands of Iraqis who died" were mostly bad people. Screw em'."

lessons in PR management ala OG: if thousands die, screw em. if a person is caught getting killed on tape, you have to say you're outraged..

[quote]

6) There is an overwhelming emotional response to things like this in the Muslim world. It is very visceral reponse. But if you ask them would they rather be captured by the US Army, or the Syrian army, in thinking it through, almost every one would conclude that they would be treated more decently by any Western army. There are huge double standards for behavior.
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once again, wake me up when you start comparing yourselves to hitler. concievably you could ge away with the same argument if you assembled 1499 people in a hall and shot them dead, and said the syrian army killed 1500.

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Abu ghraib was a tactical and moral mistake. It appears as though this latest incident may be as well. But please climb off of your moral high horse long enough to acknowledge the barbarity and total lack of adherence to the international laws of armed conflict by these 'insurgents'. The ethics of US military personnel on their worst day is choir practice comparatively.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
...your grasp of Muslim media does not go beyond 'al-jazeera', and so with your very, very limited reading of what muslim world media actually is like you are ill equipped to make ANY claim as to what we may or may not do with these incidents.

on the other hand, your partisan, manufactured propaganda machine media is known by everyone here.

[/QUOTE]
How do you pretend to know his knowledge or reading of the muslim wolrd media? Are you standing over his shoulder?

Then you have the pomposity to say you know that all his reading is "partisan, manufactured propaganda known by everyone here". So everyone here knows it all, but an American who studies world affairs and even participates on this Muslim forum doesn't know squat. The self importance is nauseating.

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I dont know whether this is an update or MSNBC just spicing up the tragedy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6496898/

Here is an extract from the above link

1: The Marine himself was shot in the face the day before so maybe he was pissed off.

So killing is legal but illegal to observe.

Now I am totally :konfused:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
How do you pretend to know his knowledge or reading of the muslim wolrd media? Are you standing over his shoulder?

Then you have the pomposity to say you know that all his reading is "partisan, manufactured propaganda known by everyone here". So everyone here knows it all, but an American who studies world affairs and even participates on this Muslim forum doesn't know squat. The self importance is nauseating.
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alright, lets hear it from the man then. what do you base your reading of Muslim media on ohioguy?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
How do you pretend to know his knowledge or reading of the muslim wolrd media? Are you standing over his shoulder?

Then you have the pomposity to say you know that all his reading is "partisan, manufactured propaganda known by everyone here". So everyone here knows it all, but an American who studies world affairs and even participates on this Muslim forum doesn't know squat. The self importance is nauseating.
[/QUOTE]

so tell us your knowledge of muslim media, have you watched Al-Jazeera or al-arabiya? Do you understand arabic or farsi or urdu? Whats your favourite muslims media?

Do you see where he's coming from?

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The list that I follow is:

AlJazeera, albawaba.com, arabic news, arab news, al hayat, egyptian gazette, ana ayafa, gulf news, Kurd and Kurdistan news, Dawn, WRMEA.com, and Islam online.

Not reading Arabic, these are the only all english sources I can find to reflect that view.

Of course I read the Jerusalem Post, Ha'aretz, and Jihad Watch too!

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Hmmm... Let's see. A guy is engaged in the most horrific house to house urban combat for the better part of a week. He sees the enemy using innocent women and children as human shields. He sees corpses of human shields who were executed by shots to the back of the head when the insurgents were finished with them. He sees live and dead insurgent bodies booby trapped. He watches insurgents engage in suicide attacks killing his fellow soldiers. He lacks sleep. He was already shot in the face. He undoubtedly saw some of his fellow soldiers wounded and killed. The enemy is using mosques, schools and hospitals as forts and ammo dumps. He is hyped up, scared, living on surges of adrenaline. Every corner he turns and every door he goes through for days might represent the last steps this guy takes on the earth.

Can anybody see how such a guy might just "snap" in all the turmoil? This guy was not playing some video game from the comfort of his room. These people are not perfect automatons that can always perform in conformity with all their schooling and training. They are real people put in impossible situations doing the best they can. Far be it for me (or you) to judge and condemn this young soldier for what he did.

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^^ I totally agree with you till.

[QUOTE]
These people are not perfect automatons that can always perform in conformity with all their schooling and training. They are real people put in impossible situations doing the best they can. Far be it for me (or you) to judge and condemn this young soldier for what he did.
[/QUOTE]

The idea behind military and training is for the soldiers to perform in comformity, no matter how chaotic the situation. (I remember this from 23 yrs ago). In the mil training specially advanced the idea is to create the most chaotic environs and have the soldiers perform as trained. No if thens and buts, and if you have "if thens and buts" the next stop is the mil psychologist, psychiatrist.
It is not an impossible situation, we (US) asked for it.