Re: twelvers
Captain, I don't think you make sense in demanding scans etc. On internet, there is no credibility of scanned references as scans are pictures in some format. Or not?
The point is that what is important in making such claims is the reference which can be challenged if found incorrect. Or not?
Therefore, if a reference is given to prove something about shias then you have to accept it, and if some shia or anyone else thinks the reference is fake then one can refute that. Or not?
Re: twelvers
Not everybody has access to the same books as a claimant might have, esp across sects. There is no Shia library that I can goto in my city, I can't accept anyone's words unless the other party accepts the existence of those words in their literature etc.
[quote]
The point is that what is important in making such claims is the reference which can be challenged if found incorrect. Or not?
[/quote]
Someone might get away by referencing to a book which is not easily available or not possessed by others.
Re: twelvers
For example, I can prove and I had proven in one of my threads which Mr Mooli found obligatory to delete, that the Early and Prominent predecessors of shi'ism believed that the Present Quran is fabricated (ma'athAllah) and interestingly those predecessors of shias e.g Nuri Tabrasi, Baqar Majlisi, Yaqub Qummi etc are highly esteemed among shias, even that Khomeni was a fan of Baqar Majlisi.
Now if you ask shias why they don't regard these Ayatullas out of the fold of Islam because of their rejecting Quran, they become so innocent and say
it was their ijtihad (judgment) which was wrong, otherwise we shias believe that the Present Quran is complete and unaltered.
See, this is the importance of Quran in Shi'ism.
Now ask them if someone rejects the Imamat of Ali then what happens?
Re: twelvers
Someone might get away by referencing to a book which is not easily available or not possessed by others.
You can at least visit their forum shiachat.com which reflects most of their beliefs, but the problem is that they practise Taqiyyah and Kitmaan which means they don't expose their real beliefs to nonshias and if you ask them if they believe in something, they would deny if it is against Sunni'ism.
Therefore, on internet, or in the real world, you have to depend on references, because the author of a writing doesn't sell books whose references have been provided in the writing.
Still there are some facts which they (shias) can't deny, e.g
Existence of 12 Imams who are higher than all Prophets and Messengers in status.
Their Imams are infallible which means they can't ever make any mistakes in any form.
They are sinless.
That Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhum usurped the right of Imam 'Ali.
'Umar beat Fatimah in the presence of Imam 'Ali and then 'Umar along with his gangsters tied a rope round the neck of 'Ali and dragged him in the streets of Madinah to Abu Bakr so that 'Ali would give his pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr.
'Umar burnt the house of Bibi Fatimah and because of 'Umar's torture Bibi Fatimah died.
Ummul Mumineen 'Aisha radhiyAllahu 'anha was a Munafiq, worse than Kafir (ma'athAllah).
After the demise of Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam, all companions turned to apostates except 3 who supported 'Ali.
There are lots of their beliefs which they can't ever deny in this world.
Re: twelvers
Now tell me what is left in Islam if you discredit and reject all Sahabah. Sahabah of Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam are those personalities through whom we received Quran and hadith without which there is no Islam.
Shias depend on their Imams though the Islam which was passed to their Imams through 'Ali to Mahdi got disappeared with Mahdi as Mahdi is hiding in a cave. Or not?
And if shias have to trust their books of hadith e.g Kafi then what the use of 12 Infallibles while shias have to trust Fallibles like Koleni (author of Usul Kafi) etc?