Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Yes, that's what I meant. So its quite impossible for Muslims to just follow Quran, they have to follow Hadith and their version of history as well.
Which brings us back to the whole argument (yet again) that we have to give up our idols if we are to progress further... we cling to our history/tradition (or respective versions of history) as if it were our God.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Which brings us back to the whole argument (yet again) that we have to give up our idols if we are to progress further... we cling to our history/tradition (or respective versions of history) as if it were our God.
Would you consider following what Prophet Muhammad did as idolatry, then?
I don't think Muslims are going to give up following religious personalities quite yet.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Would you consider following what Prophet Muhammad did as idolatry, then?
I don't think Muslims are going to give up following religious personalities quite yet.
The answer to that is, I do not know for sure what he did... the only thing I can fall-back to is the Quran, which literally takes us inside this individual's conscious such that there are voices telling him to "say" or "do" or "do not" ... beyond that, I consider any other report of behaviour suspect.
My understanding is that Ahmad/Muhammad condemned blind following of the elite and clergy, and asked the commoners (ummiyyoon - he was one of them actually) to think/reflect with one's own mind by submitting to none other than the One Creator to which all humanity calls out to, regardless with what name or means... to shun any tradition that violates humanrights: Hardly any kind of idolarity. I see the wisdom in it so I follow suit, not because he was called "Muhammad" (praiseworthy) in a book.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
But history is incomplete and inaccurate. And even if we know the "what" we don't necessarily know the "why" behind it. There isn't any advantage to having the perfectly recited, recorded and protected book if one still has to wade through inaccurate and unrelated history, stories, interpretations and supporting texts to know what the message is that was supposed to be already there in perfect form. If we are still unsure what the history and the meaning of certain events after 1400 years of study, how is it going to get any easier as time marches on? If history were to be the indicator of how to 'know the message', we should already know. There shouldn't be any doubt if wearing hijab is necessary or if is permissable to eat shrimp.
I think your reply is balanced though it is a bit removed from how at least I perceive the Quran when considered in its totality. The history of Prophet Muhammad SAW life is important because Quran was not revealed to him wholesole in one instance but its revelation was much in relation to the events as they progressed in his life. The question would be when Quran was revealed in a time continuum then how can we compress its understanding to a single instance in time and disregard all the context surrounding the time period in which it was revealed. Ofcourse that context now is called history. The divergence on issues such as hijab are very recent which have stemmed when muslims starting abandoning the history associated with their religion and some trying to jump into the melting pot of other cultures.
History is a preceptor of prudence, not principles. The foundation for morality is laid out in the Quran and almost any other religious texts. But the detials of how the morality plays out today differs greatly from a time that was as polar opposite to today's society as you can get. Dishonesty, murder, selfishness, lewdness, treachery, perjury,etc are wrong for eternity. Knowing the history of who fought what battle and stood on what mountain 1400 years ago is irrelevant. Particiluarly if we aren't 100% sure that it even happened or if it did what it meant.
And there is little doubt that conscienceness of these things stemmed because it has always been the same God sending messages to humanity to declare what is legit in their lives and what not. So almost every religion today which has a concept of god has orginated from the God's messages in one way or another and what is left for us to do is figure out which one is intact in its purest form and closest to what God wants from us. And you need the history behind each one of them to make that determination.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
I think your reply is balanced though it is a bit removed from how at least I perceive the Quran when considered in its totality. The history of Prophet Muhammad SAW life is important because Quran was not revealed to him wholesole in one instance but its revelation was much in relation to the events as they progressed in his life. The question would be when Quran was revealed in a time continuum then how can we compress its understanding to a single instance in time and disregard all the context surrounding the time period in which it was revealed. Ofcourse that context now is called history. The divergence on issues such as hijab are very recent which have stemmed when muslims starting abandoning the history associated with their religion and some trying to jump into the melting pot of other cultures.
And there is little doubt that conscienceness of these things stemmed because it has always been the same God sending messages to humanity to declare what is legit in their lives and what not. So almost every religion today which has a concept of god has orginated from the God's messages in one way or another and what is left for us to do is figure out which one is intact in its purest form and closest to what God wants from us. And you need the history behind each one of them to make that determination.
Given that you believe in this sort of analysis of the Quran, you should read Fatima Mernissi's book on the topic of women and the veil. And don't even start with that mumbo jumbo of "oh that feminist, blah blah blah". Be objective and be open to theories and research that people were brave enough to research and write about, and you'd be surprised what you uncover about what muslims have done over the centuries.
I don't ask you to believe it, but consider and respect the fact that many women do not want to wear the hijab, and that many many more don't want to wear the niqaab. Simple. Just like we who don't wear that suff respect those who do. And I ask that the clothing piece be not turned into a political propaganda piece to convince women to stay more at home, because ladies and gentlemen, this is the WORST time period for women to sit at home quiet and uninvolved in the affairs of mankind; affairs that affect their families' lives and their own personal lives (GOD FORBID, we see the woman as an indivudal aside from her family). I don't think that's asking for much.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Not getting influenced by the West??? Are you lost on Mars since turkey has been trying very hard to get into EU and copy european culture.
See, this is the thing: Until and unless pakistanis see the threat as a threat, the army can’t do anything. It reminds me of a story of a king in delhi * who kept saying oh, i am fine the invader is very far away until the invader coming thru afghanistan was right at his doorstep and the king at delhi had to surrender to him!!!*
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
^ Sounds more like the charade between Hulaago Khan and the Abbasid Khalifah who thought God was on his side...
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
What sort of analysis are you refering to in particular. Be specific and be clear when you state it. So the cat is out of the bag, no wonder your views are so biased … feminist. Just teasing you, I mean no disrespect. I have nothing against feminists as long as they don’t stretch the truth beyond what it should be. Yes, I know not in particular muslims but the whole lot of humans have not done a lot of justice with women or for anyone who can be oppressed and taken advantage of in anyway.
Tell me since when did muslims start basing their beliefs and actions on their personal choices? I am not saying that this does not happen and infact it is the primary reason why differences exist among muslims, some major ones along numerous minor ones. I know the hijab issue is controversial but putting aside the subject of hijab, I am questioning the philosophy you are riding on. Do you pick and choose from your personal likes and dislikes without knowledge of what Allah SWT wants for us or likes for us? Lets assume that hijab was stated explicitly in the Quran alongwith a description of a shuttle-cork burqa and you were commanded to wear that, would you still be arguing about your personal likes or dislikes of it or would you submit that Allah SWT wants you to be wearing it the way it is. Now I know their is debate about what exactly hijab or khimar is, which is why I said let us assume it is crystal clear, then what would you be doing?
Can you tell me what respect means and when it should be given?
I absolutely agree this is not the time in which women should stay uneducated and uninvolved in the affairs of this world. They need to educate themselves and learn many many things. You’d be surprised how many Indian women who do housework all day and live their traditional family lives (ghar mein bandh and family ki khidmat at all expense) can outsmart you in a simple talk and how knowledgible they are about world affairs, its because they educate themselves while sitting even at home, reading and reading and reading and learning. Unfortunately, our muslim women spend much time in shopping and shopping and shopping and idle, useless talk instead of utilizing that time for better things that will make their decision making power more valuable. On this point I agree with you but still maintain that there are some limits that neither gender should cross in their quest for participating in the community or worldly affairs.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
^ Brother, while I agree with your analysis on the difference in approach between Pakistani (actually most muslim) women and others in terms of their time-spending habits, it is we ourselves who have barred them by setting the very limits you seem to be supporting... If we are to play a game of assuming, then first let us assume that those limits were knocked out of the equation: What would then happen? Women would indeed feel empowered and actually obligated to learn about worldly affairs. This will enable them to come out of their psychological shell of not looking at the world as if they are not really members of it in terms of active work.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
^ Brother, while I agree with your analysis on the difference in approach between Pakistani (actually most muslim) women and others in terms of their time-spending habits, it is we ourselves who have barred them by setting the very limits you seem to be supporting... If we are to play a game of assuming, then first let us assume that those limits were knocked out of the equation: What would then happen? Women would indeed feel empowered and actually obligated to learn about worldly affairs. This will enable them to come out of their psychological shell of not looking at the world as if they are not really members of it in terms of active work.
I think you might have misunderstood me. Knockoff the barriers we have created but not those Allah SWT has ordained. The other point I wanted to make was that self improvement should be engrained into everyone so it does not appear as a privilege but rather a basic right of humans. One problem I see is that the male being the figurehead of the family is greatly misconstrued today.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Understood brother, but I feel that what God has ordianed may not be what we think he has (hence the intended or unintended misconduct): His ordainment is inherently embedded in us by design, as in only the human females conceive offspring and that too by a certain interaction of the male, etc...
We have come to a point in evolution where a woman can infact lead a house and even provide for it (she is called rabbat-ul-bait you know). I do not see any restrictions/limits on a woman in this regard regardless of how squeemish we men feel about it. The order is for the women to dress modestly and be responsible citizens in every respect; what is more important is that they be humanbeings of good character and excellent conduct. That is it (and the same goes for men too) and sky is the limit... Perhaps it would be best if you explained a bit more on what you exactly think God has ordained in terms of the limits for women. Maybe I missed something in your posts?
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Tell me since when did muslims start basing their beliefs and actions on their personal choices? I am not saying that this does not happen and infact it is the primary reason why differences exist among muslims, some major ones along numerous minor ones.
Aren't all beliefs and actions based on personal choices? Forcing anyone to believe something or do something against their choice, at least for adults, is slavery. I know you didn't mean to say muslim women ought to be slaves but there are degrees of it, unintentionally ofcourse
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Understood brother, but I feel that what God has ordianed may not be what we think he has (hence the intended or unintended misconduct): His ordainment is inherently embedded in us by design, as in only the human females conceive offspring and that too by a certain interaction of the male, etc...
We have come to a point in evolution where a woman can infact lead a house and even provide for it (she is called rabbat-ul-bait you know). I do not see any restrictions/limits on a woman in this regard regardless of how squeemish we men feel about it. The order is for the women to dress modestly and be responsible citizens in every respect; what is more important is that they be humanbeings of good character and excellent conduct. That is it (and the same goes for men too) and sky is the limit... Perhaps it would be best if you explained a bit more on what you exactly think God has ordained in terms of the limits for women. Maybe I missed something in your posts?
I think we are on the same page then. However as pointed out there are something by design which are ordained in men or women is what also sets the basis for certain limits. Like marriage for instance, IMHO is not meant to retire a woman to a retired life in the household but whatever role is to be had by either spouses should be agreed upon. Does not mean that the man has to earn everything and the woman cannot or that a man cannot play a part of upbringing his kids or it is the God ordained duty of a woman to be cooking food. These are really not barriers in todays world or as you say at the very stage of evolution we are at. Though they were 1400 years ago which is still reflected in the opinions of scholars who become scholars studying the views of centuries old traditional scholars.
Hijab is a controversial topic and even I myself sometimes change opinions about it. At the minimum I am convinced thus far that atleast a headscarf should be adorn but I am not fanatic about it. I absolutely do not agree with the shuttle-cork thing.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Aren't all beliefs and actions based on personal choices? Forcing anyone to believe something or do something against their choice, at least for adults, is slavery. I know you didn't mean to say muslim women ought to be slaves but there are degrees of it, unintentionally ofcourse
Sir, with all due respect I am not discussing this with respect to non-muslim people so I probably will not reply to your post.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
I think we are on the same page then. However as pointed out there are something by design which are ordained in men or women is what also sets the basis for certain limits. Like marriage for instance, IMHO is not meant to retire a woman to a retired life in the household but whatever role is to be had by either spouses should be agreed upon. Does not mean that the man has to earn everything and the woman cannot or that a man cannot play a part of upbringing his kids or it is the God ordained duty of a woman to be cooking food. These are really not barriers in todays world or as you say at the very stage of evolution we are at. Though they were 1400 years ago which is still reflected in the opinions of scholars who become scholars studying the views of centuries old traditional scholars.
Hijab is a controversial topic and even I myself sometimes change opinions about it. At the minimum I am convinced thus far that atleast a headscarf should be adorn but I am not fanatic about it. I absolutely do not agree with the shuttle-cork thing.
:) Well then unless I am mistaken, the dreaded "scarf" is the only bone of contention between you and PCG... I want no part of it lol however, I have now come to a realization that a sash (dupatta) is more than adequate instead of a garment specifically designed for head-covering if you catch my drift :D And of course, it is a personal choice (no compulsion)
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
:) Well then unless I am mistaken, the dreaded "scarf" is the only bone of contention between you and PCG... I want no part of it lol however, I have now come to a realization that a sash (dupatta) is more than adequate instead of a garment specifically designed for head-covering if you catch my drift :D And of course, it is a personal choice (no compulsion)
Lets hope its only that and I am not becoming the target of feminist propaganda .... :)
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
^ Wouldn't that be something. After centuries of misogynist propaganda, maybe the tables are turning :)
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
^ Wouldn't that be something. After centuries of misogynist propaganda, maybe the tables are turning :)
Thank you for your candid comments.
Re: Turkey poised to lift hijab ban
Given that you believe in this sort of analysis of the Quran, you should read Fatima Mernissi's book on the topic of women and the veil. And don't even start with that mumbo jumbo of "oh that feminist, blah blah blah". Be objective and be open to theories and research that people were brave enough to research and write about, and you'd be surprised what you uncover about what muslims have done over the centuries.
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read her book again ...she admits that the historical refs she has so wrongly quoted in most cases are not her research at all but based on someone else's furthermore she draws all the wrong conclusions from them....her revisionist theories are lame and unsupported by the consensus of scholars.
and in any case her projection of most companions as misogynists or warmongers is distasteful and of the Prophet[saw] as helpless in front of his dominating wives ....if she wanted to talk about hijab she shud had just stuck to that but her attempts at being the amateur historian and giving her ignorant views on important islamic events had totally damaged her credibility ....that woman has indeed led many astray