^You need to keep one thing in mind. Allah sent Quran and sent a Prophet saw, who demonstrated the teachings of Quran. Prophet saw established a society as well that worked in accordance of Quran.
Disconnecting the Quran from Prophet saw and the society he established is erronous. One cannot understand the true meaning of Quran by reading the Quran alone.
I think the disagreement happens when traditionalists try to mimic the infrastructure of a society in which Islam was demonstrated by the Prophet SAW. We should demonstrate Islam can work in todays society by proper reformation of its implementation rather than structure a society which was existant 1400 years ago. Every societal structure erects itself on some principles, to me that is what should be Islamic. The workings of the society are differential based on many factors however it is the underlying fabric of the society that makes it Islamic not an outlook which mimics 7th century Arabia in which the Prophet SAW lived.
I agree that there are numerous ahadith that were fabricated, and usually we dont even refer to those in our deeni matters. Imam Bukhari r.a. himself collected over a million, yet included a small percentage of that in his collection.
They all are Sahih, and fool proof. A muhaddith would tell you that. There are sciences of hadith (many threads on GS regarding that in the past). Certain ahadith refer to certain events sure, but the message can just as well be implemented in today’s times.
Also, what would fool proof the reformation of these professors?
I think the disagreement happens when traditionalists try to mimic the infrastructure of a society in which Islam was demonstrated by the Prophet SAW. We should demonstrate Islam can work in todays society by proper reformation of its implementation rather than structure a society which was existant 1400 years ago. Every societal structure erects itself on some principles, to me that is what should be Islamic. The workings of the society are differential based on many factors however it is the underlying fabric of the society that makes it Islamic not an outlook which mimics 7th century Arabia in which the Prophet SAW lived.
Salam,
But Muhaddiths would tell you that is possible. So why need for a reformation?
But Muhaddiths would tell you that is possible. So why need for a reformation?
Ahadiths serve as framework for any time period.
However Muhaddiths are experts in the science of hadith not legislation or law or even the political workings of a society. Quran is the framework, there is where I differ, not ahadith. Ahadith describe a society which was erected on that framework. This is however not to say that ahadith a devoid of principles or things which constitute parts of a framework.
Are some of you guys serious? Did you read the ENTIRE article?
They want to change practices that are unIslamic and are being passed off as part of your muslim identity - practices that most educated muslims have left behind, but still are practiced on a wide scale, because of lack of education and awareness.
If you are opposing Turkey's moves, then do you support female genital mutilation or women barred from travelling withoutt their husbands or honor killings or stopping women taking an active role in teaching Islam?
I really need Crescent to answer this question, because you are clearly opposing opposing this article and everything in it.
Are some of you guys serious? Did you read the ENTIRE article?
They want to change practices that are unIslamic and are being passed off as part of your muslim identity - practices that most educated muslims have left behind, but still are practiced on a wide scale, because of lack of education and awareness.
If you are opposing Turkey's moves, then do you support female genital mutilation or women barred from travelling withoutt their husbands or honor killings or stopping women taking an active role in teaching Islam?
I really need Crescent to answer this question, because you are clearly opposing opposing this article and everything in it.
Where in the world is that passed off as islamic law? What the article is doing, or the author is, generalizing the points which need to be 'reformed' without putting much thought into the context these were presented in.
[QUOTE]
However Muhaddiths are experts in the science of hadith not legislation or law or even the political workings of a society. Quran is the framework, there is where I differ, not ahadith. Ahadith describe a society which was erected on that framework. This is however not to say that ahadith a devoid of principles or things which constitute parts of a framework
[/QUOTE]
Salam,
I can understand that, and for most parts its true. However, what I mentioned before holds true too. For example, prayer..the guidelines for praying are in Ahadith, and not in the Quran. The Quran gives you the foundation, and the rationale behind it, while Ahadith gives you a guide as to how to implement prayer in your daily life.
^You need to keep one thing in mind. Allah sent Quran and sent a Prophet saw, who demonstrated the teachings of Quran. Prophet saw established a society as well that worked in accordance of Quran.
Disconnecting the Quran from Prophet saw and the society he established is erronous. One cannot understand the true meaning of Quran by reading the Quran alone.
And I think that Turkey's goal, if it truly gets accomplished, will serve as an excellent way to make the connection between the Prophet's doings and sayings and the Quran more clear to us. Please read the article. Do you have your wife ask your permission every time she goes out of the house anywhere? I hope not, most men don't to a reasonable extent. I don't see most muslim women ringing their husbands up and asking them if they may please go to the grocery store to pick up some bhindi at 11:25 am on Tuesday morning. Yet, a hadith exists which is definitely out there being interpreted that a woman must ask permission - and then you get into social injustices like women not being permitted to see their families after marriage, or women being locked in their homes literally with locks on doors when the husband goes out to work (ex. one of our next door neighbors in Pakistan, we were shocked to find). How do you eradicate these problems? By looking at the hadith collections, re-analyzing them and re-interpreting them, and then educating people about what you've found and what you've determined most likely is closest to the truth.
You yourself said that Turkey is probably doing this for their political goals, but do you know that the hadith collectors were commissioned by political leaders of their time (informally or formally) and so what guarantee do you have that some hadith's didn't slip into the collections which were biased or false just to further political propaganda?
Crescent, maybe you didn't read the article closely enough, but the main goals are to achieve an eradication of these problems, because there are hadith's being interpreted wrongly OR hadith's which suggest one has the ability to do these things Islamically. Wouldn't you WANT that sort of literature to be visited, re-analyzed, and muslims to be re-educated on these matters? Because that's exactly their goal.
Exactly. And those that lived Islam the best, according to many historical claims, are the people who lived BEFORE hadith were ever collected and formally recorded. They must have had some inkling of an idea on how to be a muslim based on Quranic direction.
By the way, how many people actually read tthrough all the hadith out there? The collections are incredibly huge with multiple volumes. I doubt any muslim lives their life in accordance with the hadith. People shape their lives, if they even do, according to what they hear off TV, from other people, and at the masjid. And we all know how much misinformation gets propagated through these methods. So, as far as I'm concerned, if someone out there is trying to write up something that clarifies misconceptions, I applaud that.
Salam
By disposing hadiths and creating a reformation? As if our deen was not complete? When in the Quran Allah has said that he has completed his deen for you today.
A Muhadith would argue otherwise with these "professors".
What can you expect from a country, which had a hijab ban in place and is one of the most secularist "islamic" nations.
Making a mockery out of their heritage.
No one is changing the quran. You are seeing things that are not there. And sure enough no one is changing the hadees. niether sufi hadeeses, nor sunni hadeeses or shia hadeeses.
I am curious, Do you even know what these changes are?
For goodness sake, let's not be logical! It's much more comfy to follow centuries old tradition, even if it means throwing logic to the wayside.
BTW, I don't "follow the Christian Church". Either way, a belief in the traditional interpretation of Islam isn't required to point out logic.
Why don't you complain about the orthodox jewish have had no reforms at all and living their lives in Europe and USA the way they did years back. No one is complaining about their 2000+ old traditions.
Logic dictates that if Allah said in Quran that the deen was complete and hadith weren't collected until 200 years after the revelation of the Quran (and not followed widely until some time after that), then following hadith is not part of the original deen.
Was the deen complete at the time of the revelation of the Quran or not?
If you want you can read the whole post otherwise highlighed material would be enough for making my point. I use the following Hadees a lot but it is such a basic one that it can be applied at most of the situations. Most of the sunni Ulema's based on Hadees are of the opinion that if a man says to a wife even jokingly the word talaq. It will result in one divorce. In a more serious situation if the word has been used three times, even if as joke, the divorce is permanent. Right ? Are you with me till now ? Good. Now read this sahih hadees and its importance. 'Umar b. al-Khattab narrated that the Prophet (S) said: Deeds are [a result] only of the intentions [of the actor], and an individual is [rewarded] only according to that which he intends. Therefore, whosoever has emigrated for the sake of Allah and His messenger, then his emigration was for Allah and His messenger. Whosoever emigrated for the sake of worldly gain, or a woman [whom he desires] to marry, then his emigration is for the sake of that which [moved him] to emigrate." Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim.
This hadith has only one path to 'Umar: Yahya b. Sa'id al-Ansari on the authority of Muhammad b. Ibrahim al-Taymi, on the authority of 'Alqama b. Abi Waqqas al-Laythi, who narrated it from 'Umar b. al-Khattab. Large numbers of people narrated this hadith on the authority of Yahya b. Sa'id, including Imam Malik, al-Thawri, al-Awza'i, Ibn al-Mubarak, al-Layth b. Sa'd, Hammad b. Zayd, Shu'ba, Ibn 'Uyayna and others.
This was the first hadith Bukhari recorded in his book, where it serves the purpose of the introduction (khutba), pointing out that all deeds that are devoid of the proper intention are vain (batil). 'Abd al-Rahman b. Mahdi is reported to have said that "Were I to compose a book comprised of various chapters, I would place the hadith of 'Umar regarding deeds and intentions in each chapter." This is one of the firm hadiths which serves as an axis of Islam. Al-Shafi'i said that it comprises a third of all religious knowledge. Ahmad b. Hanbal said that the principles axes of Islam, in terms of hadith, are three: the hadith of 'Umar that "deeds are judged only by intention," the hadith of 'A`isha, "Whoever introduces into our affairs that which does not belong, it is rejected," and the hadith of al-Nu'man b. Bashir, "The licit is clear and the illicit is clear."
So now you tell me if a person is saying talaq to her wife jokingly , there is no intention of talaq then why this hadees does not apply to this situation. Most Ulema will tell you that Talaq is always given when you are mad. But this is a very generalized statement about a very serious situation. Should we not revisit the fiqah of Talaq in the light of this Hadees ? **
**Nobody even try to tell me that this Hadees only applies to the matter of religious affairs not affairs of daily life.
Anybody can misunderstand and be ignorant of something, Ulema's are no exception.
Quran does not specify a qualification to understand and implement it in your life. Do you have to have a Master's degree from a darul uloom to understand Quran and examine hadees ?
Quran itself says that we have made it easy, then it challenges believers to ponder on it, but it does not say that you have to be an Alim to understand and ponder on it.
If Quran itself invites an average Joe to ponder on Quran then why an average Joe not ponder on Hadess and examine it.
This simple religion has been converted to a 'gorak dhanda' by those who say that you need certain qualifications to understand deen. They are same people who have monopoly on the religion. It is same mentality as those of Ulema a Ahal a Kitab which has been mentioned in Quran.
^ yes
Quran doesnt need the besakhi of anyone..or anything..
it is the only book which the Ulema is responsible for..nothing else...i dont care who or how many read the other unauthorized(by Allah himself) texts...i will stick to the quran.
