Try-n-buy?

In defence of Pakilarka bhai X2, he used the word 'tried by so many'

Not ....'used by someone'.

Notice the difference with words 'tried' and 'so many'.

Divorced or widowed women have no such phenomenon combined together (tried + so many).

Even the title has word 'Try' as negative (or sarcastic?) connotation. Not used for divorced or widowed women. :)

true diwana, but there are women who are widowed or divorced multiple times, or someone who is raped.

the point is that it whichever context the words like try, used, second hand etc type of words reduce women to objects, and thus we should be careful in how we convey our thoughts.

That is what i was pointing out. as I said, I dont have much of an issue with what he is trying to say, but the way it is delivered. just something to think about, but lets not have that divert the focus of the thread.

Absolutely. :)

When people date 'for fun' , like probably PatriotX implied also, they do present themselves as 'objects' to try.

that is not always true
and depends heavily on how you are defining dating.
just because someone has 'dated' a number of people does not mean they have slept around.

Yes. For me trying does not necessarily mean sleeping together.

Emotional trial is also a trial. While it makes the person more mature in relationship, many opposite members (male or female) do not like the idea of someone even emotionally been 'tried'.

In this regard, men are more 'jealous'...across the board. Some deny some don't. Some accept, some don't.

Re: Try-n-buy?

so how does that fit in with arranged marriages? I mean there is an introduction and meeting there as well, whether it is a chai parade or meeting at an event or anything. What are the odds that the guy or the girl will go for the first rishta and what are the odds that the first prospect comes with a proposal. Is that then not also emotional 'trial' as you call it?

so just not meet or see or talk to anyone? is that the solution? or if you do meet, or see or talk to someone, then you must marry that person?

I don't think 'desi' woman meet someone with the intention of getting married to them right away. When and if they both feel that they're compatiable they take things from there, get to know them a little more till both are comfortable and actually see a future together. If not, they'll send you subtle hints and back-off completely.

The chai parade or meeting at an event in arranged rishta has no emotional attachment (let alone a physical relation).

And what Gina said.

and niether does dating in all cases.
dating does not mean the establishment of a boyfriend/girlfriend thing
all dating in essence is meeting people..
now if we are talking about serious relationships ..whether physical or not, and hookups thats a diff thing

so just like you are evaluating a person when you are introduced by someone and meeting at community events or family events, similarly if you are meeting someone on your own and evaluating, from an emotional attachment and investment there is no real difference.

^ Allow me to recapitualate what has been said:

So we started with this first post by Mamaof3.

It states that gals in west date for finding a mate. And somehow fob's who do not marry the gals, stay just for fun in the relation do a slimy act. Not necessarily.

If the relationship is started from the outset as "for fun", meeting, and non-commited dating; then what kind of social sin (apart from religious sin) any man does? Fob or not, both do the same act. Isn't it? Both may lie. Both may run away from the gal when commitment develops.

There may not be any verbal commitment all throughout the fun relation from guy side and yet the gal eventually try to make him responsible for her emotional attachment to him.

I already mentioned above and will say again in different way that using someone for fun and playing with someone's emotions at the outset and having evil intention is wrong by all means. But this is not a general phenomenon or unique to fob/fop.

Even a gal may lie or decieve. Not always but may start telling the guy from beginning "I am not in to commitment". Let's have fun". OR

more commonly: "Let's play by ear"

X2 bhai, You just confirmed this as well. I agree with that.

Not all dating is for finding a mate.

Then why cry when the guys leave gals?

Re: Try-n-buy?

allow me to cut to the chase and break it down to the core issue

the summary is that the issue is with misleading

and that misleading could cause emotional attachment on part of the other person
and when the person misleading finally walks away then the other person is hurt
now whether this emotional attachment is developed in a dating setup
or it is developed in a rishta setup, or family introduction, its all the same.

the issue is misleading people, not dating. misleading can happen in any context..it more than likely happens more in a dating setup, but is not exclusive to it. So the blame should be on the people misleading others, not on the ones who were misled, aside from the fact that they may not have been able to see thru the facade.

Sure! :) Except for the bold part.

Misleading in any set up is wrong.

It is likely to happen in dating and not likely to happen in arranged rishta...where they had no real chance to spend the time together...unless they are engaged for a while and had multiple meetings.

Just tea parade or casual encounter in a gathering has no reason for emotional attachment and if someone is emotionally hurt even by that then that someone should have his or her head examined!

Dating businnes is a potentially dangerous undertaking. One never know where it could lead.

replace likely with "more likely" and 'not likely" with "less likely" and it becomes reality.

question then becomes the number of encounters and if one s misled in those encounters, and even without 'dating' in family introduction set up, sometimes this meeting and evaluating does go on for some time. you dont have to be engaged for some time to have multiple meetings.

otherwise, just like someone should have their head examined for developing attachment after one chai parade or some arranged meeting, similarly someone who has been on one date should have their head examined.

dating is potentially dangerous, depending on the people involved, and so is the desi err non-dating dating which goes on without the label of 'dating' where ppl are spending time with each other at uni or community events..

OK. I added the conditions on arranged rishta scenario. In arranged scenario, neither man nor woman by themselves are there to present each other for trial. Hence no real chance of emotionally attached or hurt.

Yes extended process of rishta does happen. Both parties know it is for good intention to have an outcome of marriage. Not fun. No trial before buying.

True. That is why I feel leery of 'love at first sight' notion too. :)

The time spent at uni is separate than non-dating dating scenario you mentioned. It is non dating to be exact since they really did not try each other emotionally or even physically.

Dating is not just meeting once for intention of marrying.
Dating involves much more than that.

Dating does not even mean meeting for marrying nor it means meeting for mating!

Dating is consistent, exclusive one to one relationship over a period of time for whatever reason.
Without any commitment whatsoever.

Time in Uni is very different. You are colleague, acquantaince or close friend without ANY other intention.

Now spending time outside Uni which you might be talking about is still not 'dating' since you are not really meeting with just one person for getting to know intention. Notice I did not use word commitment for a reason here.
If someone insists on calling it dating then other person may call it non-dating dating. :)

I must clarify few points.

While dating is completely non-commital in terms of marrying, engagement is partially commital. Hence emotional trauma is more reasonable and explainable by breaking the engagement.

well there are different flavours of arranged marriages and when people were trying to hook me up I had ample opportunity to have solo time with the ladies and I know others do too.

Lets not start tripping over words like try before buy, the point that we got to was about misleading, and that causing issues. and there is plenty of misleading in arranged rishta process, ask the ladies here they have seen it heard about it we have seen threads about it.

again, lets not regress into the 'try physically or emotionally" stuff, when guys and girls spend time together, alone, in groups and there is one leading the other. The point is that a stereotypical view of dating is not the only situation where emotional attachment can develop, and it is not the only situation where one can mislead the other and then take off..

again, absolute terms, no..
dating "may involve", "often involves". "mostly involves"
yes but a plain statement like dating involves..well then that just says dating comes in one flavour and thats it, and that is simply not true

as I said earlier..

again, absolute terms, no..
dating may mean meeting for mating for a number of people, but for all, no. again your statement is indicating that dating comes in one flavour and thats it, and that is simply not true

utterly incorrect.

however, during the hours people spend with each other during uni and work, attachments develop, whether it is having lunch together in a canteen, or sitting together for company or uni events, two people or a group..

look at the end of the day, whatever name someone gives it, dating, courting, hanging out..and in whichever situation, the end point is that if someone is misleading another then emotional distress can happen, now if some person is going to have an issue with someone who has been hurt emotionally, then well that says something about that person. throwing words like used etc just makes the person emotionally hurt as less of an individual or culprit, whereas they could have been 100% sincere and just were misled.

sure.., the deeper, longer and more formal the relationship, the higher emotional trauma..all other things being equal.

but emotional trauma can happen in other cases too. aadhi qaum in pakistan is doing rona dhona over aashiqi and firaq and mehboob and raqeeb...thats not all due to 'dating' is it :)

No matter what flavour one looks at, arranged marriage process has never been and will never prove an emotional attachment before either engagement or marriage itself.

The ample time you had was fine and dandy but I am sure neither you nor the other person had developed any chance o0f emotional attachment. Hence no room for being emotionally hurt.

If you had ample time to spend even before engagement that was falling in to bounds of 'dating' then that is not true arranged rishta. I would call it "facilitated dating". You are sooo lucky. :D

The main difference in arranged marriage or rishta is to protect people from being hurt unnecessarily from being emotionally involved unless other things are sorted out.

Well, that is exactly what I mentioned. Chance of misleading is much less in arranged rishta scenario compared to two individulas meeting and presenting them as objects to try.

There is not more misleading in arranged rishta than dating.

In dating one try to present himself or herself in the best form or shape since that person knows that ONLY one person is to be fooled.

I never said emotional attachement can only develop in dating scenario.

Sick people develop emotional attachment to people (movie stars, singers and sport players) they see on TV. Ever saw the movie "The Fan" starring Robert De Niro?

What is wrong in admitting dating involves something not necessarily about people meeting for the purpose of marrying? It involves something more than that.

Obviously it is not about 'casual encounter' which I thought was good not to include.

This is the same position you confirmed above. :)

So what did you not agree with the statement. Please explain. It is very benign statement and very truthful.

"Dating does not even mean meeting for marrying nor it means meeting for mating!"

Humm..

Then still it is not dating per se. Like anyone can guess. Attachment at work area or school can develop but for it to be called dating, two need to meet periodically for a period of time exclusively to be called dating each other.

Uni canteen encounters hardly can be defined dating. Unless someone is dreaming of other at night to be 'dating'.

That part is absolutely I agree. Deliberately hurting and using someone is wrong and this probably the third time if not more I say it in this thread.

Yes. Dating for long time is also included by the way even though it still remains non-committal and not the same as engaged or "To-Be-Married".

Bahi X2. That is poetry. So many non-desi poetry is also full of lovey dovey stuff for fun and head banging.

You and I both know that is not real and is just for fun.

Read Meer Dard poetry or Meer Taqi Meer. They wrote great stuff to be read again and again for entertainment and touching the depth of hearts of people. No reality. It is just a way to show very high level of intellect and intelligence by imagining or creating something which is not even real.

Besides this kind of stuff does not need a real person. People who write this kind of material do not need a real person or may never have fallen in to love with real person.

Even you and I can write rotay dhotay shayr for an imaginary bewafa girl..:D

Re: Try-n-buy?

your definition of dating is incorrect, I have tried to explain it to you several times but for one reasn or another it is not getting across. your generalized statements seem to go nowhere for example this one

and dating does NOT mean its meeting for mating, that is what it may mean to you, but that does not define all dating. and as I stated, your defining dating as only one thing will trip you up.

until that is done, we can split hairs but it will just be a vicious circle. so lets just agree to disagree.

as far as the poetry..look, 'dating' is frowned upon in Pakistan, but everything from our literature to music to movies to dramas to pop culture to digests to real events in colleges and universities indicate that people develop emotional attachments through interaction, we can be politically correct and not call it dating per pakistani society norms, and I am not in the least bothered by it.

The point is emotional attachments can develop and if an individual is misleading the other then one will get hurt, does not matter what circumstances this emotional attachment developed, and to get back to the basic point that then if someone sees this individual as emotionally used. well then so be it. probably best if the 2 dont hook up anyways.

but as i said, lets agree to disagree and move on, this vicious circle is not leading anywhere. Thanks though.

Aah!! so that is where the problem was.

I also meant to say dating is not just about mating.

The word 'nor' is equal to 'not' bhai X2!!!!!

The statement;

Dating does not even mean meeting for marrying nor it means meeting for mating!

means that I agree dating is not about marrying and NOT about mating also. :)
Hence my definition of dating is still valid.

I thought we were done with misleading part after I wrote third time or more the same thing.

Rest, frowning on dating in Pakistan and all those alleged acts in drama or poetry do not concern me either.

I merely presented my views on dating, engagement and marriage process and gave my logical basis for it.

Besides I also proved men are men no matter if they are fob's/fop's or local, and their habit of escaping the commitment from dating leading to future marriage, is similar across the board.

Great discussing with you. :)

Re: Try-n-buy?

lol I believe you two have been saying the same thing for the last 2 pages

Re: Try-n-buy?

diwana, sorry amigo, I missed the word 'nor' ..my bad. as you can see how it would confuse someone. I stand corrected.

PatriotX, yeah I was a little tunn while posting, not sure about Diwana's reasons :)