True Muslim

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41

Insaaniyat

I am in no way implying that I am a judge or will even dare to.

For me the fact remains that uttering the Shahadat does not constitute a Muslim.

For a Muslim is the follower of Islam, which in turn means submission to the Will of Allah.

In order to submit to the Will of Allah, a way of life has been ordained which is described in the Qur'aan. It does not state that just reciting the Shahdat confirms a Muslim.

Like I stated before, it must come from the heart not just the lips and the Shahadat is just the beginning and part of a Muslim way of life.

Each person has the right to beleive what they feel is right for them, as on the day of judgement, Allah alone will be their Judge.

42

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**

For me the fact remains that uttering the Shahadat does not constitute a Muslim.

For a Muslim is the follower of Islam, which in turn means submission to the Will of Allah.

In order to submit to the Will of Allah, a way of life has been ordained which is described in the Qur'aan. It does not state that just reciting the Shahdat confirms a Muslim.

Like I stated before, it must come from the heart not just the lips and the Shahadat is just the beginning and part of a Muslim way of life.

**
[/quote]

In light og above context please tell me then why inpakistan we declared ahmdies non-muslim knowing that-
**
1) They Openly Recite Kalma Shaada (and they get 3 year prionment for doing so)
2) They beleive on Holy Prophet (SAW) as Last Prophet.
3) They say 5 times prayer as any other muslim. Their Namaz is same.
4) They pay Zakaat
5) They beleive on Hajj (although Saudi Government banned them to enter Macca)
**

So My Question to you and all guppies are;
Do you consider Ahmdies muslim or non-muslim???

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

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[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**
Insaaniat:
above is "Declaration" part of "Initiation". you can see that they are claiming Ghulam Mirza as Imam Mehdi. what information do you have about Imam Mehdi's arrival and departure as in Shia books?

according to my knowledge, from Ahadith (amy may discard, because perhaps she wants to prove that Ghulam Mirza was Imam Mehdi) that Imam Mehdi would show up in Mekkah during last major signs of "qayamat" when there would be open wars between Muslims and non-Muslims, and Imam Mehdi would see arrival of Hazrat Essa (Christ) in his life.

So are they making this part of beleifs that Ghulam Mirza was "Imam Mehdi"?? or it is not required to beleive that!?

**
[/quote]

Changez bahi

1- I am not shia.
2-Yes when they intiate in ahmddiyat they beleive on mehdi.
3- The Claim of Mehdi by Mirza Sahib itself require seprate thread becuase it is big topic. You can start new thread if you like to discuss that.

*** The defference between ahmdies and other muslim is that ahamdies beleive that Mirza Sahib is Mehdi and they have verses of Quran and Hadith to support their claim. So it is not somthing that they invented from somewhere. After each year thousands (muslim+non-muslim) are entering into ahamddyyat after knowing all this. they must see some truth in their claims to be entering in their fold.***

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 10, 2001).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Dear Babar

Just for the record, I actually possess most of these books and am well aware of the context of the sentences. The sayings are very self explanatory. The only difference will be your interperatations of the sayings.
The gift of CHOICE. We believe what we want.

Secondly, just uttering the words of the Kalimah Shahadat DOES NOT convert any person into a Muslim.

Kalimah Shahadat must be confirmed from the Heart, and unfortunately noone except Allah SWTA knows the sincereity of the heart.

To become and live as Muslim means a way of life.

Any person can utter the Words and then live a life of a Non Believer.

The condition to become a Muslim is NOT just the Kalimah.

The worst muslim is the one who claims to be a muslim, but does not act and live like a muslim.

Once you have read the the context of the sayings, feel free to come back and explain.**
[/quote]

You possess most of the Books do not prove that you study them also.

If however, you have studied that books then you know that there are so many points in these books that go in favour of Ahmedies.

WHY DONT YOU HAVE PRESENTED THOSE POINTS THAT GO IN FAVOUR OF AHMEDIES???

This fact shows light on your NEGATIVE Intention.

Secondly you claim that just uttering the words of the Kalimah Shahadat DOES NOT convert any person into a Muslim.

According to you Kalima itself CANNOT CONVERT ANY NON-MUSLIM TO A MUSLIM because there is another CONDITION.

That condition in your words is:

Kalimah Shahadat must be confirmed from the Heart.

Mr. Sholey

If there were actually any condition on Kalima-e-Shahadat, Then that condition MUST HAVE BEEN MENTIONED IN KALIMA ITSELF.

SO I SHALL NEVER ACCEPT ANY CONDITION OR ADDITION ON KALIMA-E-SHAHADAT IMPOSED/MADE BY YOU.

Following are your words:

"unfortunately noone except Allah SWTA knows the sincereity of the heart."

So you consider yourself "UNFORTUNATE" for why you do not know the sincereity of the heart.

In other words you are accepting that ONLY AND ONLY ALLAH KNOWS THE SINCEREITY OF THE HEART.

SO TELL ME ABOUT THE PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION OF YOUR CONDITION ON KALIMA BEFORE THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.

It is clear that Practical Implementation of your CONDITION on KALIMA-E-SHAHADAT BEFORE THE DAY OF JUDGMENT OR SUCH IMPLEMENTATION IF DONE BY ANY PERSON OR ORGANIZATION OR ASSOCIATION OR EVEN BY A GOVERNMENT (WHO IS NOT "ALLAH" OFCOURSE) WILL BE WRONG.

Now tell me about the correctness of this actual implementation by Pakistan Government in 1974.

You accept that there is ONLY ONE CONDITION ON KALIMA-E-SHAHADAT which if fulfilled, Then Kalima-e-Shahadat can convert Non-Muslims to Muslims.

You also accept that ONLY ALLAH CAN DECIDE whether this condition is fulfilled or not.

Now consider a situation:

I consider myself Muslim. I believe in Kalima-e-Shahadat.
ONLY AND ONLY ALLAH KNOWS WHETHER I JUST HAVE UTTERED THE WORDS OR HAVE ACCEPTED THIS KALIMA IN HEART.

CAN YOU DECIDE ABOUT ME:

What would be your answer.

1- I am Non-Muslim.

2- I am a Muslim.

3- Cant be decided.

Give me the answer to this question.

45

This is a thread about Ahmadee and non-Ahmadee muslim. None of these are non-muslims
as far as I'm concerned.

Punjabi Kurhi

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Mr.Sholay:

I know that you are in troubles. It is really not easy for you to decide. For your help I am presenting here some Ahadith that shall help you in making right decesion.

"Holy Prophet(PBUH) says Whoever himself says that "I am Muslim", Write

down his name in the List of Muslims to be prepared for me"

(Sahi Bukhari Chepter Kitab-a-tul Imam al naas)

"Holy prophet(PBUH) saysthat whoever offer Namaz like our Namaz, turn

his face towards our Kibla and eat our Zabeeha, that person is such a

Muslim who is guarenteed by allah and Rasool. So you do not break the

guarentee of Allah and Rasool."

(Sahi Bukhari Kitab-al-Salawt Chepter Fazal Istaqbal Alqibla)

"Once during a war, a companion of holy Prophet(PBUH) Hazrat Usama bib

Zaid came over a koffer and raised his sword upon him. That koffer

shouted "La illaha Illal-Allah"

Hazrat usamah thought that he has accepted Kalima just due to fear and

Kalima is not there in the heart of that person. So Hazrat Usama killed

that person.

When Holy Prophet (PBUH) came to know about this matter, his(PBUH) face

turned red and he(PBUH) asked Usama a number of times. "Had you seen

inside the heart of that man?"

( Sahi Muslim Kitab-ul-Imam Chepter Tehrim-e-qatal al kaffer baad

qoolahoo La illaha Illa llah)

47

ha ha amy…
you are a clever one.
To have a space to breath you are making others to fight with each other. Typical Christian style…

48

[quote]
Originally posted by Insaaniat:
** Changez bahi

1- I am not shia.
2-Yes when they intiate in ahmddiyat they beleive on mehdi.
3- The Claim of Mehdi by Mirza Sahib itself require seprate thread becuase it is big topic. You can start new thread if you like to discuss that.

*** The defference between ahmdies and other muslim is that ahamdies beleive that Mirza Sahib is Mehdi and they have verses of Quran and Hadith to support their claim. So it is not somthing that they invented from somewhere. After each year thousands (muslim+non-muslim) are entering into ahamddyyat after knowing all this. they must see some truth in their claims to be entering in their fold.***

**
[/quote]

Just for your information, if people are entering into religion in thousands, its not guaranteed that the religion is right is it?
How'd you justify the conversion of our muslim brothers to Christianity or Ismaili in northern Pakistan? India? Bengladesh? etc
Does it mean that Christianity or Ismaili is the right religion?

We already know who is right among other religions, as in Quran Allah said that Islam is the accepted religion.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?