True Muslim

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21

[quote]
Originally posted by wasir:
*Bro.....just check your history
back in seventies......it wasn't just one Molvi or few Alims...
It was whole Ummah who was behind the decision to call Qadiyanis non-muslims
All great Ulimas were behind this decision.
*
[/quote]

Wasir,

If all Ummah was behind this then why Ummah is scared to print the report and also print Hamood-ur-Rehman report as well as mentioned by another guppy.

Secondly ummah has done a great service to Islam and God must very please so you should have been rewarded for your greats service. Can you name few things to enlighten my knowledge that you think happened to muslim ummah which you can attributed direct to this decision? anything from history of pakistan perhaps?

I will wait your answer.

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 07, 2001).]

22

Forget about Pakistan.
Pakistan was obtained in name of Islam by feudal lords of current Pakistan. They misused/exploited religious beliefs / emotions of common Muslims to get a land to rule by their own rules not Islamic rules. Just look at our institutions,
education system = designed by Britishers
financial system = designed by west/Britishers
judicial system = designed by Britishers
constitution = designed by Britishers
etc etc etc

what have we done in 54 years? just BSing around! killing each other, dividing nation into as many sects/nationalities, breaking up of Pakistan...

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

23

Changez,

You are saying that in 54 years we have not developed true islamic state in pakistan but you and every other pakistani accept national assembly 1974 decision (knowing that many ullemah backed that amendment and were present in assembly when it was passed). You also accept the later amendments to constitution and made by later governments on demand by mullahs. So you think everything else in non-islamic except those decisions that made against ahmadies/qadianis/lahoris??

Secondly 1953 constitute may be derived from the english law by 1973 constitution was made from scratch and all parties including jamat islamli has accepted it. So why you think our constitution is nonislamic??

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 07, 2001).]

24

well, if in 1974 someone passed such law, I’m not responsible for that I was only 3 years old

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

… even now if such assembly passes other laws I’m not responsible.

my knowledge about Qadianis or Ahmedis is not complete. here I came to know that Ahmedis are different than Qadianis, is there a book which best describes the concepts/beleifs of Ahmedis vs Qadianis vs Sunni/Shia Muslims?

on their websites, Ahmedis/Qadianis didn’t say that they beleive in Ghulam Ahmed Qadian as a prophet, then who is he? what is his status in their religion?

my beleif is that if someone beleifs in Allah, Prophet PBUH as last messenger, day of judgement, and angels he is a muslim according to Quran and we don’t have right to regard them as KAFIR. if he hates sahabas, or if someone raises other person to different levels it is his problem and he will be responsible to Allah and its upto Allah to decide who is KAFIR or to go to Hell or Heaven.

I will try to bring Quranic Ayat sometime later regarding who is “ayyuhallazi aamanu”.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

25

The Lahore Group:
The Qadiani Group:

  1. Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is Khatam al-Nabiyyin, the interpretation of which is that he is the greatest and last of all the prophets.

    1. Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is Khatam al-Nabiyyin, the interpretation of which is that he is the greatest though not last of all the prophets.

  2. The Holy Quran is the final Shariah (code) for the world.

    1. The same.

  3. No prophet, whether new or old, shall come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

    1. Prophets may come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

  4. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian was not a prophet but a Mujaddid (Reformer) and Promised Messiah and Mahdi in Islam.

    1. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet as well as Promised Messiah and Mahdi in Islam.

  5. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never changed his claim, views or definition of prophethood in 1901 with the publication of Ek Ghalati ka Izala (A Clarification of an Error).

    1. The first written evidence of the change of belief with regard to prophethood was the poster Ek Ghalati ka Izala.

  6. Belief in the advent of Hazrat Mirza Sahib as a Mujaddid is not essential for becoming a Muslim but his acceptance is necessary in the interest of progressive Islam.

    1. Belief in the mission of Hazrat Mirza Sahib as a prophet is essential for becoming a Muslim.

  7. Anyone who professes faith in the Kalima - La-ilaha illallahu Muhammad ur Rasul Allah (There is only one God and Muhammad is His Apostle) - is a Muslim and not a kafir.

    1. Anyone, who does not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian to be a Prophet, is a kafir.

  8. It is permitted to say prayers behind any Muslim Imam provided he is not guilty of dubbing other Muslims as kafirs.

    1. It is not permitted to say prayers behind any Imam who does not recognise Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claims.

  9. Marriage relations with non-Ahmadis are permitted.

    1. Marriage relations with non-Ahmadis are not permitted.

  10. After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, Wahi-e-Nabuwwat (prophetic revelation) has ceased, only Wahi-e-Walayat (saintly revelation) is continued. Hazrat Mirza Sahib's revelation was Wahi-e-Walayat and not Wahi-e-Nabuwwat.

    1. After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, Wahi-e-Nabuwwat is continued. Hazrat Mirza Sahib’s revelation was Wahi-e-Nabuwwat.

  11. The Founder of the Lahore Section was Maulana Muhammad Ali, M.A., L.L.B. Translator of the Holy Quran into English, a companion and disciple of the Founder of the Movement (Hazrat Mirza Sahib).

    1. The Founder of the Qadian Section was Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, who was the son of the Founder of the Movement and was a young man in his teens at the time of his noble father’s death.

  12. The members of this section call themselves Ahmadis, and are generally known also as Ahmadis or Ahmadis of the Lahore Movement.

    1. The members of this section call themselves Ahmadis, but are generally known as Qadianis.

This side by side comparison might help.
aaiil.org is the source.

Punjabi Kurhi

26

Changez,

It is true that it is not your fault and you may not agree with rest of the muslims on this issue but in gerneral i seen pakistani open their mouth this topic without knowing anything or doing any research on what is right or wrong. I hope you are not one of them.

amy

i think you got many things wrong here. I have got these conditions of of intiation from ahamddiyya site read and judge yourself.
http://208.218.155.130/introduction/conditions.html

**

“Away from Eyes…Close to Heart”

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 07, 2001).]

27

AMY

No wonder you are trying to direct others away from the sunnah - so that you may influence us with your 'version' of Islam. I think you have exposed yourself.

28

**amy

i think you got many things wrong here. I have got these conditions of of intiation from ahamddiyya site read and judge yourself.... **

Sorry amy what I ment to say that the site from where you qouted the ahamddiyya belives was wrong.

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

29

[quote]
Originally posted by wasir:
**Bro.....just check your history
back in seventies......it wasn't just one Molvi or few Alims...
It was whole Ummah who was behind the decision to call Qadiyanis non-muslims
All great Ulimas were behind this decision.

**
[/quote]

Mr. Wasir,

In 1974, it was not the whole Ummah, it was only Pakistan National Assembly. It was a session of Pakistan National Assmbly NOT THE SESSION OF INTERNATIONAL ISLAMIC CONFERENCE.

ALSO NOTE THAT:

Pakistan National Assembly has NOT declared Ahmedies as KOFFER.

Then what National Assembly has declared them?

National Assembly just had declared that JUST FOR POLITICAL REASONS, AHMEDIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED AS NON-MUSLMS.

Its meaning is only that if a particular Law applies only to Muslims of Pakistan, then Ahmedies shall be considered exempt from such law.

SO National assembly has not declared Ahmedies as Koffer.

ALSO NOTE THAT:

Pakistan is not the only Muslim Country of the World.

ANY OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRY HAS NOT OFFICIALLY DECLARED AHMEDIES AS NON-MUSLIM AS PAKISTAN HAS DONE.

Mr. Wasir,

You dont have told me the about the Islam of Maulana Abu-al-Kalaam Azad.

If He is (Maulana Abu-al-Kalaam Azad) a Muslim Alim in your views then he may have given that statement which I reffered, keeping in view those hundereds of Hadiths about which you have reffered.

30

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
**The Lahore Group:
The Qadiani Group:

  1. Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is Khatam al-Nabiyyin, the interpretation of which is that he is the greatest and last of all the prophets.

    1. Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is Khatam al-Nabiyyin, the interpretation of which is that he is the greatest though not last of all the prophets.

  2. The Holy Quran is the final Shariah (code) for the world.

    1. The same.

  3. No prophet, whether new or old, shall come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

    1. Prophets may come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

  4. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian was not a prophet but a Mujaddid (Reformer) and Promised Messiah and Mahdi in Islam.

    1. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet as well as Promised Messiah and Mahdi in Islam.

  5. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never changed his claim, views or definition of prophethood in 1901 with the publication of Ek Ghalati ka Izala (A Clarification of an Error).

    1. The first written evidence of the change of belief with regard to prophethood was the poster Ek Ghalati ka Izala.

  6. Belief in the advent of Hazrat Mirza Sahib as a Mujaddid is not essential for becoming a Muslim but his acceptance is necessary in the interest of progressive Islam.

    1. Belief in the mission of Hazrat Mirza Sahib as a prophet is essential for becoming a Muslim.

  7. Anyone who professes faith in the Kalima - La-ilaha illallahu Muhammad ur Rasul Allah (There is only one God and Muhammad is His Apostle) - is a Muslim and not a kafir.

    1. Anyone, who does not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian to be a Prophet, is a kafir.

  8. It is permitted to say prayers behind any Muslim Imam provided he is not guilty of dubbing other Muslims as kafirs.

    1. It is not permitted to say prayers behind any Imam who does not recognise Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claims.

  9. Marriage relations with non-Ahmadis are permitted.

    1. Marriage relations with non-Ahmadis are not permitted.

  10. After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, Wahi-e-Nabuwwat (prophetic revelation) has ceased, only Wahi-e-Walayat (saintly revelation) is continued. Hazrat Mirza Sahib's revelation was Wahi-e-Walayat and not Wahi-e-Nabuwwat.

    1. After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, Wahi-e-Nabuwwat is continued. Hazrat Mirza Sahib’s revelation was Wahi-e-Nabuwwat.

  11. The Founder of the Lahore Section was Maulana Muhammad Ali, M.A., L.L.B. Translator of the Holy Quran into English, a companion and disciple of the Founder of the Movement (Hazrat Mirza Sahib).

    1. The Founder of the Qadian Section was Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, who was the son of the Founder of the Movement and was a young man in his teens at the time of his noble father’s death.

  12. The members of this section call themselves Ahmadis, and are generally known also as Ahmadis or Ahmadis of the Lahore Movement.

    1. The members of this section call themselves Ahmadis, but are generally known as Qadianis.

This side by side comparison might help.
aaiil.org is the source.

**
[/quote]

amy, what are you doing?

You started topic of difference between Ahmedies and other Muslims but now you have started showing differences between Lahory ahmedies and Other Ahmedies.

31

Assalamo Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahe Wa Barakatahoo

I hereby submit my Declaration of Initiation duly completed and signed. Please accept me into the fold of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at and
pray for me.

     I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah. He is One and has no partner. And I bear witness that Muhammad is
                                             His Servant and Messenger.

I enter this day the Ahmadiyya Jama'at in Islam at the hand of TAHIR AHMAD. I have firm faith that Hazrat Muhammad Rasoolullah (peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him) is Khataman Nabiyyeen, the Seal of all the Prophets. I also believe that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be
upon him) was the same Imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah whose advent was prophesied by Hazrat Muhammad Rasoolullah (peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him).

I promise that: 

    I will always try my best to abide by the ten conditions of Bai'at (initiation) as prescribed by the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him).

    I will give precedence to my faith over all worldly objects.

    I will always remain loyal to the institution of Khilafat in Ahmadiyyat and will obey you as Khalifatul Masih in everything good that you may
    require of me, Insha'allah.


                              I beg pardon from Allah, my Lord, from all my sins and turn to Him.


                     O my Lord, My Allah, I wronged my soul and I confess all my sins; pray forgive me my sins,
                                   for there is none else except Thee to forgives. Ameen!

Signature: __________________________________ Date: ____ / ____ / ________

Insaaniat:
above is "Declaration" part of "Initiation". you can see that they are claiming Ghulam Mirza as Imam Mehdi. what information do you have about Imam Mehdi's arrival and departure as in Shia books?

according to my knowledge, from Ahadith (amy may discard, because perhaps she wants to prove that Ghulam Mirza was Imam Mehdi) that Imam Mehdi would show up in Mekkah during last major signs of "qayamat" when there would be open wars between Muslims and non-Muslims, and Imam Mehdi would see arrival of Hazrat Essa (Christ) in his life.

So are they making this part of beleifs that Ghulam Mirza was "Imam Mehdi"?? or it is not required to beleive that!?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

32

Those who have questions can look at the Ahmadiyya Official Website for their quries.

There is a great sections on Ask Islam in audio format! Just click on the questions and listen to the answer!!

33

Babar:

I posted side by side comparison of Ahmadee/Qadiani because people were mixing them up. The fact is that these are different groups.

I answer all those who ask for it and you know it

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

.

Punjabi Kurhi

34

Here are the actual sayings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, with references proving his Fraud, so please do not be in denial Amy.

"They accuse me of having placed myself above Hasan and Husain. I tell them again that it is really so, and that God will prove it very soon."
(Ijaz-ul-Masiah)

"It is a pity that people do not see that the Quran has not given Husain even a sonship. It has not even mentioned his name. Even Zaid is better than Husain, for his name is mentioned in the Quran".
(Nazul-i-Masiah, Page 45)

"At first I thought I had no similarities with Christ who was a prophet and one of the most favorites of God, and if there were any signs of the grace of God manifested in my favor, I used to consider them as a token of partial favor; but later on, God's revelations began to pour upon me like rain, and this brought a change in my beliefs and I was given the appellation of prophet but it was a prophet in one sense and disciple prophet in another sense."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 149-150)

"So you are blessed. The Messiah has come to you. God, the Powerful has placed His hand on him and bestowed His eloquent speech upon him.... You are blessed. The Mehdi of the time had come to you with abundant riches and endless wealth.... You people, I am the Messiah of Muhammad's line and I am Ahmad al-Mahdi."
(Khutba Ilhamia, Page 60, 61, 98)

"Give up all mention of the Son of Mary: Ghulam Ahmad is far greater."
(Dafi-ul-Bala" Page 20)

"It is my claim that I am that Christ about whom all the sacred scriptures have prophecied that his advent will take place in the last days of the world."
(Tuhfa-i-Gooladia, Page 195i)

"I swear by That God who controls my life that He sent me and He had named me a prophet and He has called me the Promised Christ and has established my claims with great signs that number above three lakhs. [3 million miracles!]"
(Tatimma-i-Haqiqat-ul-Qahi, Page 68)

"I am that same prophet , the very Incarnation of the "Seal of Prophets" and twenty years back in the Book Baraheen-i-Ahmadiah, I was called by God by the names of Muhammad and Ahmad and was declared by God Himself to be the very prophet in fresh and blood."
(Eik Ghalati-ka-Izala, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"It is a fact that Muhammad(pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles... My Miracles exceed one million in numbers."
(Ijaze-e-Ahmadi, Page 79; Tadhkira tul Shahadatain, Page 41)

"As for him (Muhammad), the moon was eclipsed but for me, two bright moons have eclipsed (solar eclipse). How dare you deny it? If his Kalam (words) were a miracle, a sign, my Kalam is also a miracle."
(Ijaze-e-Ahmadi, Page 79)

"This verse, 'He is the Messenger of God and the seal of Prophets' contains a secret allusion to prophecy and that is that the coming of prophets is sealed for ever, and except for the prophet incarnate who is no other than the prophet himself, will have the faculty of receiving revelations from God openly like the prophets of old. Since I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was made the prophet Incarnate."
(Eik Ghalati-ka-Izala, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"I swear by God in whose hand lies my existence and say that it is He who has reputed me and called me a prophet and the Messiah."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Appendix, Page 68, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"He (Mirza Ghulam) is a prophet of God and the like of every prophet."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 79, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"We sent you (Mirza Ghulam) indeed as our mercy to the worlds."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 82, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"Just as the Aryan people are awaiting the coming of Shri Krishna. I am the same Krishna, and this claim is not only mine but God repeatedly revealed to me that I am the same Krishna, the King of the Aryans to come in the last days of the World."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 45, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

"Whatever was given individually to each prophet has been collectively given to me."
(Nuzul-e-Masih, Page 99)

"There was no prophet whose name was not given to me, as I was told in the "Baraheen Ahmadiah that I am Adam, I am Noah, I am Issac, I am Jacob, I am Ismail, I am Moses, I am Abraham, I am Jesus, and I am Muhammad. In the capacity of a prophet Incarnate."
(Tatimma-Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Page 84, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)

If this isn't enough evidence of the claims, then you will never get any evidence!

How can anyone deny the claims. What more do you want, Blood from a Stone?

35

Sholay,
I will try get hold of these books and look up myself and then I will answer your post.

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

36

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Here are the actual sayings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, with references proving his Fraud, so please do not be.......**
[/quote]

You just have collected these references from Anti-Ahmedia Books or Websites.

I am sure you will never have stuied these referenced books by yourself.

Presenting some sentances without the sequence is not the clear proof of any fraud.

I can claim that all these references, if thoroughly studied from original books, their meanings might be totally different.

Some things however may appear strange to you

BUT (WITH SPECIAL THANKS TO GOD) WE AHMEDIES KNOW THAT ALL THESE APPEARENTLY LOOKING STRANGE THINGS ARE INFACT NOT AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM BUT INFACT THESE THINGS ARE THE TRUE ISLAM.

BUT TO KNOW ABOUT THE REALITY, DEVOTION AND THOROUGH RESEARCH IS NEEDED.

WITH CUT-PASTE OF SOME SENTANCES, YOU CANNOT FIND THE FACT.

HAZRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMED SAHIB IS THE TRUE PROMISSED MASIH. HIS MOST PRIDICTIONS HAVE COME TRUE BEFORE OUR OWN EYES. HIS JAMAAT IS BEING FAVOURED BY GOD HIMSELF. WE ARE THE EYE WITNESS OF GOD's FAVOURS TO HIS JAMAAT.
WE AHMEDIES ONLY TRUST IN GOD. WE BELIEVE IN HOLY PROPHET (PBUH) TO BE THE MESSANGER OF GOD. WE BELIEVE THAT QURAN IS THE FINAL BOOK OF GOD. WE BELIEVE HAZRAT MUHAMMAD (PBUH) TO BE THE KHATAM-N-NABBIYEEN.

IF YOU STILL CONSIDER US NON-MUSLIMS THEN PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION.

WE ALREADY BELIEVE IN KALIMA-E-SHAHADAT. SO WHAT SHOULD WE DO FERTHER TO BECOME MUSLIM?

NOTE THAT KALIMA-E-SHAHADAT UNCONDITIONALLY CAN CONVERT A NON-MUSLIM TO A MUSLIM.

SO WHAT CONDITION WOULD YOU LIKE TO PUT ON KALIMKA-E-SHAHADAT ??? SO THAT THIS (KALIMA+CONDITION) CAN CONVERT NON-MUSLIM AHMEDIES TO MUSLIMS???

37

This thread was started as a difference between ahmadee and non ahmadee muslim. I did not call ahmadees as non-muslims. This was not supposed to Mirza bashing. Any way allegations of any kind require some type of substantiation, otherwise they will not hold.

Punjabi Kurhi

38

Dear Babar

Just for the record, I actually possess most of these books and am well aware of the context of the sentences. The sayings are very self explanatory. The only difference will be your interperatations of the sayings.
The gift of CHOICE. We believe what we want.

Secondly, just uttering the words of the Kalimah Shahadat DOES NOT convert any person into a Muslim.

Kalimah Shahadat must be confirmed from the Heart, and unfortunately noone except Allah SWTA knows the sincereity of the heart.

To become and live as Muslim means a way of life.

Any person can utter the Words and then live a life of a Non Believer.

The condition to become a Muslim is NOT just the Kalimah.

The worst muslim is the one who claims to be a muslim, but does not act and live like a muslim.

Once you have read the the context of the sayings, feel free to come back and explain.

39

Sholey:

If someone recites the Kalima and claims to be a muslim, isn't it against Islam to call them kafir? Who is the judge? Isn't God himself the judge of everything that we do? How do we know what's in other peoples' heart? Let God be the judge. Quran explains that very clearly.

Punjabi Kurhi

40

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Secondly, just uttering the words of the Kalimah Shahadat DOES NOT convert any person into a Muslim.

Kalimah Shahadat must be confirmed from the Heart, and unfortunately noone except Allah SWTA knows the sincereity of the heart.

To become and live as Muslim means a way of life.

Any person can utter the Words and then live a life of a Non Believer.

The condition to become a Muslim is NOT just the Kalimah.

Any person can utter the Words and then live a life of a Non Believer.

The worst muslim is the one who claims to be a muslim, but does not act and live like a muslim.

Once you have read the the context of the sayings, feel free to come back and explain.**
[/quote]

Excuse me Sholay but I strongly disagree because the Racitation of Kalma Shaada to be muslim was defined by Holy Prophet (SAW). If you do not believe on this then it upto because you are the one who is defying the Prophet Prophet (SAW). You do not have to be Alim to understand this.

Secondly you said "The condition to become a Muslim is NOT just the Kalimah" so what other thing you want to add to it??? Do you want to invent a new Kalam Shaadha ???

Any person can utter the Words and then >>live a life of a Non Believer.
The worst muslim is the one who claims to >>be a muslim, but does not act and live >>like a muslim.

Dont you think your are trying to be judge here??? It is not your mind who first time come across this thing. Our beloved Prophet (SAW) knew all these things but never change this defination of muslim becuase He(SAW) knew that he cannot see anyone's heart and he is not the judge but messenger.

The only time you call someone non-muslim when he openly declare himself non-muslims and deny the One God and Holy Prophet (SAW)in his full senses and under no pressure.

Now have you found any ahamdy who say openly claims that he does not beleive on One God and Holy Prophet (SAW) as his messenger????

"Away from Eyes......Close to Heart"

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited June 09, 2001).]