Tribal Areas-Kashmir...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tribal Areas-Kashmir...

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by zaavia: *
**Malik, who says so...the tribals have always been independent...the Durrand Treaty separating the Pakistani tribal areas from the Afghan ones has expired in 1992? *

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Make some sense. First you say that Kashmir is an Indian territory, and now you are saying FATA is not Pakistani territory, based on some colonial treaty. The main difference remains that these people i.e. the foreign terrorists in Wana are not fighting for anyone's freedom, but using Pakistani territory to terrorise Afghans and probably locals. They spent the period after 1992, taking part in the slaughter of Afghan people long after the end of the jihad against the Soviets. The true Mujahadeen went back to their own countries or other places where they were needed like Bosnia or Chechnya. These thugs and criminals remained, and their expulsion from the region is long overdue.

Btw, the only reversals in Kashmir policy seem to be from the Indians these days - try reading some of their public statements. So you don't have much to show much for that as well.

malik read the title...i believe that both situations are similar...it seems hypocritical to me to support jehadis over the indian troops in kashmir...and the opposite for pakistan...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tribal Areas-Kashmir...

Malik, how come after 28 years of the Afghan conflict, suddenly we have realized that these people are terrorising Afghans (wow, such a love for the Afghans when the govt. cares less for Pakistanis)...

this is the beauty of pakistani politics...every one knows that it was the isi and the pakistani army, that supported hekmatyar in 1992, and then taleban...and now they are helping to root them out, at the expense of Pakistan's unity...

it only takes a little, "Either you are with us or against us", to reverse any Pakistani policy, and then we want comity of nations to respect us...who will respect us when we dont have any self respect in ourselves?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
The main difference remains that these people i.e. the foreign terrorists in Wana are not fighting for anyone's freedom, but using Pakistani territory to terrorise Afghans and probably locals. They spent the period after 1992, taking part in the slaughter of Afghan people long after the end of the jihad against the Soviets. The true Mujahadeen went back to their own countries or other places where they were needed like Bosnia or Chechnya. These thugs and criminals remained, and their expulsion from the region is long overdue.

Btw, the only reversals in Kashmir policy seem to be from the Indians these days - try reading some of their public statements. So you don't have much to show much for that as well.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
malik read the title...i believe that both situations are similar...it seems hypocritical to me to support jehadis over the indian troops in kashmir...and the opposite for pakistan...
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zaavia, don't feel hypocritical, just read my replies and those of others who have laid out the clear differences betwen the two situations. As I and others have said the main difference remains that these people i.e. the foreign terrorists in Wana are not fighting for anyone's freedom, but using Pakistani territory to terrorise Afghans and probably locals.

Btw, after 1992 it was not the Pakistanis or any other external power that was killing Afghans in their thousands, it was these Afghan groups amply supported by these foreign terrorists. Pakistan has been very consistent in this entire period in working to bring together all Afghan groups. Why did these foreign "jihadis" hiding in FATA not go back to their own countries or other places to fight a jihad where they were needed, and let the Afghans to run their own country?

malik, read accounts of Ahmed Rashid, or any neutral journalist, explaining the role each side played after 1992, and the creation of taleban...pakistan army and isi was directly involved in aiding hekmatyar, and then the creation of taleban...

i agree that the people of Wana are not fighting a battle of independence yet...but let the army keep pounding their houses...and it wont be long until...whole of Fata will be burning...remember, if our Army succeeds in agitating the population of FATA to a point of no return, then there is no way we can subdue them...

the track record of our army is very poor in these kind of wars, take bangladesh, take balochistan...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

zaavia, don't feel hypocritical, just read my replies and those of others who have laid out the clear differences betwen the two situations. As I and others have said the main difference remains that these people i.e. the foreign terrorists in Wana are not fighting for anyone's freedom, but using Pakistani territory to terrorise Afghans and probably locals.

Btw, after 1992 it was not the Pakistanis or any other external power that was killing Afghans in their thousands, it was these Afghan groups amply supported by these foreign terrorists. Pakistan has been very consistent in this entire period in working to bring together all Afghan groups. Why did these foreign "jihadis" hiding in FATA not go back to their own countries or other places to fight a jihad where they were needed, and let the Afghans to run their own country?
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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by zaavia: *
**i agree that the people of Wana are not fighting a battle of independence...
*

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Who was killing tens of thousands of Afghans througout the 1990's?

Why did these foreign terrorists now hiding in FATA and others in Afghanistan not go back to their own countries or other places where there was a need for Jihad, like the bulk of the (foreign) Afghan jihadis?

Now that you have conceded that unlike Kashmir, the people of FATA are not fighting for freedom (thereby undermining your whole opening argument), how would you deal with the situation in FATA resulting out of the presence of these foreign terrorists? Would you let them remain there, keep the Pak army out, and allow the American's to invade FATA wholesale?

Re: Re: Tribal Areas-Kashmir...

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
The Indian forces are attempting to prevent the breakaway of Kashmir from the Indian Union, through political and military surpressiong that affect the general population.
Pakistani forces are attempting to arrest armed foreigners hostile to the government who have illegally entered Pakistan and established military bases, and who are protected by a small minority of the FATA's population. Pakistani forces are not interrupting the lives of, or surpressing the political ambitions of, the population of the tribal areas. For example, unlike in Indian occupied Kashmir, Pakistan has **not
* placed troops to occupy population centes, the tribesmen are not living their lives overwatched by loaded army guns.
Pakistani troops are only deployed in areas in the FATA where combat is occuring.
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Well said Mad_Scientist ji...

well FATA can chose to join Afghanistan or be independent all they want.. i.e. if that's what they want.. I don't think they mind the funds coming their way.. it's only when they abuse this generous support by harboring foreign nationals and all kinds of crooks and criminals and smugglers that they begin being a pain in the neck..

Malik, I didnt say that there is some freedom movement going on in Fata...by the way, freedom movement for us is terrorism for India...anyways, the Pakistani Army is trying hard to convert this to a freedom struggle...

by comparing the two i was pointing out that the heavy handedness of the pakistani army in wana and the indian forces in kashmir is the same...the only difference is that the indians were fighting a freedom movement (not sure where that movement stands now), and the pakistanis are trying to convert it to a freedom struggle...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Who was killing tens of thousands of Afghans througout the 1990's?

Why did these foreign terrorists now hiding in FATA and others in Afghanistan not go back to their own countries or other places where there was a need for Jihad, like the bulk of the (foreign) Afghan jihadis?

Now that you have conceded that unlike Kashmir, the people of FATA are not fighting for freedom (thereby undermining your whole opening argument), how would you deal with the situation in FATA resulting out of the presence of these foreign terrorists? Would you let them remain there, keep the Pak army out, and allow the American's to invade FATA wholesale?
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by zaavia: *
**Malik, I didnt say that there is some freedom movement going on in Fata...by the way, freedom movement for us is terrorism for India...anyways, the Pakistani Army is trying hard to convert this to a freedom struggle...
*

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President Musharraf specifically addressed the FATA tribal leaders the other week, and implored on them to surrender the foreign terrorists, and avoid any military operation. He has been doing that for the last couple of years as well. Do you think the Indians did that when they launched their military occupation of Kashmir, or any other leader that has done that? The minority of the FATA tribal leaders have irresponsibly sided with foreigners against the Pakistani state, and put their own people second. No wonder the responsible tribal leaders are now asserting their control, and sueing for a peace deal.

Now as I asked previously how would you deal with the situation in FATA resulting out of the presence of these foreign terrorists? Would you let them remain there, keep the Pak army out, and allow the American's to invade FATA wholesale?

ok, now answer me this question...how on earth have we suddenly learned that the arabs there (if they are there) are acting against us? give me one incidence where those people which the government now says are there did something against pakistan...most of the arabs there came during the afghan war, when we called them "mujaheds" since our 'big boss' was calling them by that name then...they married local women and stayed on...where's the 'big target' musharraf claimed was surrounded during the wana operation?...whats the result of the operation so far?

most of the wanted criminals have been found in the bigger cities like karachi, and faisalabad...and i am sure the biggest of them all is the state guest in rawalpindi...musharraf cares less for pakistan or pakistanis, what he wants and needs desperately is that bush wins the next election...even if thats on pakistan's cost...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Now as I asked previously how would you deal with the situation in FATA resulting out of the presence of these foreign terrorists? Would you let them remain there, keep the Pak army out, and allow the American's to invade FATA wholesale?
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Zaavia,

I don't disagree with you on the hypocrisy of Musharraf and PA until now. We knew for many years that these people were there and only now action is being taken. That is the fault of our establishment. They only take action when foreigners point a gun to their head and make them do a U-Turn. Be it Taliban, Nuke program etc.

Having said that, I think that regardless of the motives, cleaning up these areas is good for Pakistan. If we don't do anything, we face a threat of US actually invading that area, should another terrorist attack happen in America. Better our Fauj then theirs.

As to the "High Value Target" thing, I think Musharraf just said that as speculation and the CNN and others took it too far.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
malik, read accounts of Ahmed Rashid, or any neutral journalist, explaining the role each side played after 1992, and the creation of taleban...pakistan army and isi was directly involved in aiding hekmatyar, and then the creation of taleban...

[/QUOTE]

Zaavia ji, I have read the book "Taliban" by the author Ahmed Rashid, and no where does he say's that the Taliban was created by ISI or Pakistan army. What he did say was that nobody is sure exactly how Taliban came into existence. There are numerous reports where the story goes that the local Afghan population started supporting the group of people(later called Taliban), when they saved couple of young girls from being raped by the war lords.
It is also true that before 1992 the Pakistani administration was supporting the Hekmatyar, and from 1992-1994, IMO, we were not supporting anybody. Our actions speaks for itself. Back in 1992, we had organised a peace conference in our capital Islamabad, where all the Afghan war lords were invited(Rabbani, Masood, Dostum, etc.), but these very same war lords failed to come to a peace deal. Quite frankly, with three million refugess in our country, being free bees, I think we became kinda irritated, and after a carefull analysis, finally decided to support the Taliban in late 1994 and mid 1995.

Actually Naseerullah Babar was the "father" of the Taliban. In the beginning, ISI was opposed to the Talibs because they put their money on "Engineer" Hekmatyar. But that kameena took ISI's money and could not defeat Ahmad Shah Masood. Instead he wasted it by shelling Kabul to bits out of frustration, while Masood's men were raping and ravaging the Hazaras. Babar arranged Taliban's main support from Maulana Diesel and Sandwich for their big trucking operations for which the Talibs served as protection muscle.

It was only later that the ISI "took over" this operation, like they take over any money making scheme. It is the treagedy of Pakistan that anything that brings us wealth immediately attracts the Generals, Feudals and Mullahs like vultures to corpses while the ordinary people are left holding the bag.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

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[quote]
Who was killing tens of thousands of Afghans througout the 1990's?
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Afghan warlords were, all of them at one point supported by Islamabad. From Masood to Rabbani, from Hekmatyar to Abu Sayaf, and from Dostum to the Taliban, ALL WERE SUPPORTED BY PAKISTAN AT ONE POINT OR THE OTHER! AND ALL TURNED ON PAKISTAN AT ONE POINT OR THE OTHER!

[quote]
Why did these foreign terrorists now hiding in FATA and others in Afghanistan not go back to their own countries or other places where there was a need for Jihad, like the bulk of the (foreign) Afghan jihadis?
[/quote]

These foreign “terrorists” are those freedom fighters that were brought by Pakistan into this part of the world at request of the civilized nations of the world including the United States. Pakistan gave them resting houses and complexes live in. From Kohat to Quetta, from Peshawar to Islamabad and from Lahore to Karachi, they had a place to stay. This is why many of the Al-Qeada heads were arrested in major Pakistani cities rather then tribal areas. Majority of the “terrorists” in the FATA area are those who fought the Soviet-Afghan war, stayed, married, had families and now have become part of that area.

[quote]
Now that you have conceded that unlike Kashmir, the people of FATA are not fighting for freedom (thereby undermining your whole opening argument), how would you deal with the situation in FATA resulting out of the presence of these foreign terrorists? Would you let them remain there, keep the Pak army out, and allow the American's to invade FATA wholesale?
[/quote]

The people of FATA are fighting for freedom, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom to live their lives according to their own rules and laws. You are mistaking, these tribes never yield to any one, not even to the rule or authority of the first Afghan state leader Ahmed Shah Abdali. They were never under the rule of the Moghuls, British, Sikhs or the Soviets. What makes you think they will allow Pakistan to “bring them into the fold of 21st century”? Once Pakistan crosses that line, then it will be a struggle for independence. Don’t get your hopes high; the tribes are being patient so far as loyal Pakistanis.

You don’t know jack about the Tribal areas or are just playing dumb, stick to WA.

HAHA BS.

Hamid Gul the head of ISI was heavily involved with the Afghan Mujaheedin from the very beginning. You might want to consider the fact that the madrassass where majority of the Talibs came from, including their Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Mohammad Omar, were Pakistani. You might also want to consider the fact the route ways that were made by Pakistani Army for Afghan fighters to fight in Kashmir, from Paktia all the way to Saya-Chin. You might also want to consider the fact that while fighting with Masood troops, Pakistani army men were fighting with the Taliban against the NA hand in hand. When the United States attacked Afghanistan, Dostum reported that at least 3-4 Pakistani helicopters flew away high profile “Talibs” from Mazar-e-Sharif.

Another bull**** you stated. Taliban never supported Hekmatyar, nor did Hekmatyar ever wanted to be part of the Taliban. In the struggle of Kabul, both Talibs and Hekmatyar men fought against each other. Under the Islamic dhool of the Taliban, many of the men from Hekmatyar defected to the Taliban. Upon which Hekmatyar fled to Iran. Seeing this, Masood and his troops fled to Panjshir. The only reason why the Talibs couldn’t take over Panjshir was because the area was heavily mined. It is called the high of the dead, only Tajikis, majority of NA arms men know how to get around it. And the only way they know how to get around it is because they helped the Russians build it.

Another reason why Talibs couldn’t have supported Hekmatyar is that Hekmatyar comes from Loye Paktia, while the Taliban are Kandahari in origin. Both people have historic rivalries.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
Actually Naseerullah Babar was the "father" of the Taliban. In the beginning, ISI was opposed to the Talibs because they put their money on "Engineer" Hekmatyar. But that kameena took ISI's money and could not defeat Ahmad Shah Masood. Instead he wasted it by shelling Kabul to bits out of frustration, while Masood's men were raping and ravaging the Hazaras. Babar arranged Taliban's main support from Maulana Diesel and Sandwich for their big trucking operations for which the Talibs served as protection muscle.

It was only later that the ISI "took over" this operation, like they take over any money making scheme. It is the treagedy of Pakistan that anything that brings us wealth immediately attracts the Generals, Feudals and Mullahs like vultures to corpses while the ordinary people are left holding the bag.
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Sultan Suri,

Either cannot read or some ideas fly over your head with alarming regularity.

I never said that Taliban and Hekmatyar were allies. What I said was that when the Taliban was coming up, ISI was still supporting Hekmatyar and did not support the Taliban. It was only much later, that the ISI ditched Hekmatyar and jumped on the Taliban bandwagon.

Ooops my fault :D

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Mar-2004/26/EDITOR/op1.asp
**
Crisis of confidence **
M.A. NIAZI

At one end is the attitude contained in the phrase ‘collateral damage,’ when applied by a military spokesman to the innocent civilians, including women and children, killed in the Wana operation. At the other end is the common experience of all Indians visiting Lahore for the one-day series, of an effusive welcome, good sportsmanship of the crowds, and even shopkeepers on occasion refusing to accept payment. The contrast is not just geographical, though that is also worth thinking about. Are there centrifugal forces at work in the West and the East which will turn into fissiparous tendencies?

For over a year since 9/11, partly because of the ensuing 10-month eastern border stand-off, Pakistan declined to conduct extraordinary operations in the tribal areas, or to send troops to Iraq. The peace offensive launched by Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s Srinagar speech last April has freed forces from the eastern front. The pressure on South Waziristan has increased since then. It is simplistic to ascribe a cause-effect relationship, because the primary driving force behind the Wana operation is the US need to end the re-emerging Taliban resistance. The foreign fighters have come into the picture, as have the tribesmen’s reluctance to brook interference in their way of life.

But the ‘collateral damage’ phrase jarred. So did the tone used in a press briefing. It was as if the briefer was speaking of a foreign enemy. Granted, the foreigners skulking in the tribal areas are foreigners, but the bulk of those fighting the Army there are not. They are Pakistanis. Did this reflect merely the speaker’s lack of command, not so much of the English language, as of its nuances?** Did the speaker realise that the American military has never used ‘collateral damage’ to refer to its own citizens?** This is because such usage allows opponents to use the phrase against Americans. Al-Qaeda, for example, could use it to justify killing 3000 innocent civilians in 9/11. Or does calling the killing of tribal women and children ‘collateral damage’ imply the speaker no longer considers them Pakistanis? Has a mindset developed in the military which takes the same view of the tribesmen as their seniors once had of Bengalis? With Al-Qaeda perceived as an equivalent of the Mukti Bahini?

And what are the tribes thinking? **The government is claiming that a few tribesmen have been misguided into supporting a horde of foreign militants. It started with the Wazirs, but successive incidents have taken place which indicate the Mahsuds, the Bangash and even the Afridis have been affected. The sniping at Army officers, the attacks on military checkposts and camps, all indicate that the tribesmen are reverting to methods used against the British. So where do they place themselves? As Pakistanis? Or what? They are certainly not Pushtoon nationalists, or Afghanistani irredentists. Is the contagion spreading through the tribes?
A key might be sought in their past. The Pushtoons fought the Sikhs under the leadership of their maliks. The British won over the maliks, so the uprisings of that era, especially after the 1890s, fell into the hands of indigenous religious leaders, like the Mullah Powinda and the Faqir of Ipi. No such figure is leading whatever is going on, yet the support they gave to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban was due to religion. Is there a religious element to the emerging uprising?

The government’s casualty figures are disturbing.** The dead include 37 military personnel (and another 12 classified as missing), 16 civilians and 31 ‘militants’ (foreign and local, perhaps including the 22 whose bodies were not recovered.) The Pakistani military has suffered more combat deaths in the Wana operation alone than the US forces have suffered in Afghanistan in total. Is the Pakistan Army unable to deal with the tribesmen? These are no longer the tribal hordes the British kept on fighting for a century. They have grown wealthier, and have gone into businesses (often enough shady) their fathers and grandfathers would not have imagined possible. Many have settled throughout Pakistan, acquired education, gone into professions, and have grasped the opportunities offered by Independence; perhaps not as much as other Pakistanis, but still, more than could have been imagined five decades ago.

If, assuming for the sake of argument, the Army cannot deal with the tribals, can it deal with the Indians? The military has diverted some of its attention to civil affairs, including politics. One brigadier gave an estimate of 70-30 in 2000, at the height of the monitoring fad. Can even that 30 percent be afforded? Is the Army capable of defending the country against India?

That is a nonsensical question, but the extravagant affection being lavished on the Indian visitors might indicate that some people are asking it.** In Lahore, this writer could not find a single person who, during the 2002 stand-off, believed that our Army could beat the Indian Army.** As a one-time defence correspondent, this writer believed India could not take the risk because of a solid conventional defence, even if one precluded the nuclear dimension, but could find no takers for his arguments. Is that mentality at work? That the Indians have to be appeased, and one might as well start early? There are also the shopkeepers who have increased their prices to gull the tourists, who seem more confident.

The pro-Indian wave raises its own questions. Doesn’t it show that the peacenik NGOs’ worries about the school curricula spreading anti-Hindu hate are baseless? Is it a comment on the ineffectiveness of the curricula? Or a tribute to the average urban Pakistani’s independence of mind? (Independence of mind is a salient feature of the tribesmen too, though they show it differently). One Lahori explained the sudden love for Indians as being based on a dislike for the Army’s continuous meddling. Or has the Indian media onslaught, through cable mostly, worked? Just as the East Pakistani Hindus were accused of perpetuating an essentially Hindu Bengali culture?

And how about the final defeat in the ODI series, the only one-sided contest in a hard-fought series? This is the first time India has beaten Pakistan on Pakistani soil. India has yet to win a Test match in Pakistan; Pakistan has won two in India. Pakistan was an act of will, flying in the face of the rational analysis and conventional wisdom of the time. Similarly, its cricket team, against India, has risen above itself before its home crowds. The last match was a tame surrender, a failure of nerve. The top order crumbled before a 19-year-old youngster. Back in 1978, a 19-year-old youngster impressed, but the Pakistani line-up did not collapse against him. Kapil Dev went on to great things, as no doubt Irfan Pathan will, but in 1978, he overawed no one.

Where has our self-confidence gone? Has the government’s defence of its own actions since 9/11, couched in terms of scaring the populace with dire consequences if a bolder course was taken, broken this self-confidence? Have our people, constantly told from the highest level, put two and two together? That the US can make Pakistan do anything, and India is the USA’s strategic ally? Major non-NATO ally only came now, and so while more tangible, doesn’t sound as reassuring to the public.
Loyalty to the state is not built by emphasising weakness. But falsely claiming strength where there is weakness is misleading. The nation paid for such an exercise in 1971, and even to an extent in 2001. Bhutto was a master of setting national goals, while conceding weakness in a way itself inspiring. “We shall win Kashmir even if we have to fight for 1000 years.” This carried a warning that the struggle was not only long, but probably very hard. “We shall obtain nuclear technology even if we have to eat grass.” The message: the price will be very high. But in both cases, the inspiring message, the leader’s reassurance, is that the high price is worth it. Is that the kind of message we are getting now from the national leadership? **That is perhaps the most worrying question of all, because Pakistan is by no means as weak as its own leaders seem to think it. They sometimes emphasise that Pakistan is a nuclear state of 140 million, with a large and strong Army, and no Iraq, no Afghanistan. But their cooperation with the Americans, and now even the Indians, to the point of obsequiousness, send a different signal. **

Hopefully, all the worries expressed in the questions scattered above are baseless. But a perception is growing, which cannot be removed, except by a decisiveness and independence in policy that would reassure the ordinary citizen that the government serves only the national interest, and the people’s welfare.
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