you may believe that al qaeda was not involved in killing bb and you may be even right. rest of the world however aint buying what you guys are peddling. to the rest of the world, bb's murder has al qaeda's fingerprint all over it and bb's killing will toughen the resolve of global community to act against al qaeda. this means even if jehadi sympathisers are successful in removing musharraf, war against al qaeda wont stop.
if the govt after musharraf refuses to act against al qaeda, americans will simply turn pak into iraq after gulf war one which means pak will be subjected to global sanctions along with ariel bombardment of jehadi infrastructure. only thing jehadi supporters can do in return is to send suicide bombers to d.c. or london which pretty much means pakistanis living abroad will be thrown in internment camps much like japanese americans were during wwii. while the treatment might sound harsh, in the end it will be fully justified. people not interested in living like human beings dont deserve to get treated as such.
First of all, it is all illusive dream of some cuckoo brain that Musharraf is so popular or so unpopular, because popularity anywhere in the world is comparative term. There is no such thing as absolute popularity. It means that even if A is not considered popular, A is popular more than B, and in that sense A is still popular.
If anti Musharraf elements were popular than they would have brought people on roads and would have got a change in Pakistan, and than there would have been no Musharraf in power but because anti-Musharrf forces are not popular, Musharraf is in power and thus it also means that Musharraf is popular (that only means that he is popular than the rest).
Now don’t start saying that anti-Musharraf forces are popular but we could not see their popularity because people prefer to watch TV and do not come on the road. If that is case than again it means that anti-Musharraf forces in Pakistan are not popular enough to bring any changes, or in other words, Musharraf is popular enough that anti-Musharraf forces could not bring their own supporters on road against Musharraf.
As for Musharraf killing own people, that is biggest farce I have heard. Own people, who? Those who break laws and then take up arms against the state are criminals and when criminals get killed fighting the state than one cannot say that state is killing own people. People of Lal Masjid were criminals, who were harassing other people around them and were challenging the writ of state. They were land grabber too, and grabbed other people’s (or state) lands using force to construct Madrasa as well as extend mosque. They occupied State Library by force and were breaking laws as their right. They started implementing their own laws in the area around them confronting state. Such criminals cannot be tolerated in any state. Pakistan tolerated them for months and that was wrong, as no state should tolerate such elements for even a day. Pakistan should have used state power to punish them badly earlier and if they decided not to obey state laws (as they did) than they should have received military action, as in the end Pakistan did.
As for Fisadis, they are not even Pakistanis. Fasadis neither recognise Pakistan as a Country nor recognise government of Pakistan. For them, they have own agenda where an Uzbeks, an Arab, an Afghan, or anyone they recognise as their group are closer to them in ideology and nationality than Pakistanis, and these retards consider them foreigners co-citizen more than Pakistanis. They just want to use Pakistani lands as vehicle of convenience to spread their retarded ideology, but do not even recognise Pakistani border, recognise Pakistan laws, or care for it. They are threat to Pakistan as country and had to be dealt as traitors (if they are from Pakistan) or invaders (if foreigners). They should be fought against and should be killed unless they surrender. [A large element fighting Pakistan from Lal Masjid was similar traitors].
I do not think that Pakistan army killing them or giving them good thrashing is bad or one can consider that Pakistan (or Musharraf government) is killing own people. If I was in place of Musharraf, I would have been harsher to them and their supporters than Musharraf government.
pakistan certainly benefits by cooperating with the americans although dumb awam is too stupid to realise this.thinking has never been a strong trait of muslim awam especially those fed on diet of jehad.
Pakistan and Pakistanis certainly do benefit from its cooperation with the USA. I hope the cooperation and the fight against the terrorists continue by the two nations until this evil is rooted out.
ive read a couple of posts by king faisal and he seems to be a complete miscreant. he needs to understand not only are people questioning musharrafs role but the ppp and benazir herself has.
its worth watching posters such as kf and sir dig alot who would be happy to link as many people possible to alkayda. this is initself extremism, disgusting extremism
actually musharraf is unpopular because he is seen as america's poodle. pakistan certainly benefits by cooperating with the americans although dumb awam is too stupid to realise this. thinking has never been a strong trait of muslim awam especially those fed on diet of jehad.
Typical of Mush supporters..
If you DONT support the dictator, you support Al Qaeda...
You are the most intelligent and well informed person in the country, while EVERYONE else is dumb! The entire nation of Millions of people is dumb EXCEPT for the handful of people who still choose to support the dictator!
Faisal, whether you like to admit it or not, Mush is unpopular because:
1. His economic boom hasnt benefited anyone but the already rich...
He has undermined the secular civil society, media lawyers, judiciary etc... All while allowing terorrists to go free..
He has undermined the constitution and is hoarding all power in his own hands, and he is willing to do anything to keep power centralized.
He has FAILED to take on Al Qaeda... He has FAILED to take on the Taliban.. The only people he has succesfully attacked are the media and lawyers, but the true enemies of the state still go scot free...
Just the other day the spokesmen for Baitullah Masood said he was behind the attack in Charsadda, but why are we not seeing Mush planning to take on Baitullah Masood?
So what are you talking about?
[QUOTE]
If you DONT support the dictator, you support Al Qaeda...
[/QUOTE]
Realistically, Mush and army are the only ones who have the ability to fight the terrorists. Ifti and his lawyer army can't be much help here, sorry.
ive read a couple of posts by king faisal and he seems to be a complete miscreant. he needs to understand not only are people questioning musharrafs role but the ppp and benazir herself has.
its worth watching posters such as kf and sir dig alot who would be happy to link as many people possible to alkayda. this is initself extremism, disgusting extremism
And the fact that you and your type will do anything to avoid having the blame put on the jihadists is indicative of your desire to protect them when they have previously not only issued threats but actually carried out suicide bombings, not only in Pakistan, but around the world. There is no musharraf in other countries, but jihadis have attacked and killed people there as well. Do you blame musharraf for bombs in Afghanistan, Iraq, UK, Spain, Algeria, Turkey etc.?
First of all, it is all illusive dream of some cuckoo brain that Musharraf is so popular or so unpopular, because popularity anywhere in the world is comparative term. There is no such thing as absolute popularity. It means that even if A is not considered popular, A is popular more than B, and in that sense A is still popular.
If anti Musharraf elements were popular than they would have brought people on roads and would have got a change in Pakistan, and than there would have been no Musharraf in power but because anti-Musharrf forces are not popular, Musharraf is in power and thus it also means that Musharraf is popular (that only means that he is popular than the rest).
Now don’t start saying that anti-Musharraf forces are popular but we could not see their popularity because people prefer to watch TV and do not come on the road. If that is case than again it means that anti-Musharraf forces in Pakistan are not popular enough to bring any changes, or in other words, Musharraf is popular enough that anti-Musharraf forces could not bring their own supporters on road against Musharraf.
As for Musharraf killing own people, that is biggest farce I have heard. Own people, who? Those who break laws and then take up arms against the state are criminals and when criminals get killed fighting the state than one cannot say that state is killing own people. People of Lal Masjid were criminals, who were harassing other people around them and were challenging the writ of state. They were land grabber too, and grabbed other people’s (or state) lands using force to construct Madrasa as well as extend mosque. They occupied State Library by force and were breaking laws as their right. They started implementing their own laws in the area around them confronting state. Such criminals cannot be tolerated in any state. Pakistan tolerated them for months and that was wrong, as no state should tolerate such elements for even a day. Pakistan should have used state power to punish them badly earlier and if they decided not to obey state laws (as they did) than they should have received military action, as in the end Pakistan did.
As for Fisadis, they are not even Pakistanis. Fasadis neither recognise Pakistan as a Country nor recognise government of Pakistan. For them, they have own agenda where an Uzbeks, an Arab, an Afghan, or anyone they recognise as their group are closer to them in ideology and nationality than Pakistanis, and these retards consider them foreigners co-citizen more than Pakistanis. They just want to use Pakistani lands as vehicle of convenience to spread their retarded ideology, but do not even recognise Pakistani border, recognise Pakistan laws, or care for it. They are threat to Pakistan as country and had to be dealt as traitors (if they are from Pakistan) or invaders (if foreigners). They should be fought against and should be killed unless they surrender. [A large element fighting Pakistan from Lal Masjid was similar traitors].
I do not think that Pakistan army killing them or giving them good thrashing is bad or one can consider that Pakistan (or Musharraf government) is killing own people. If I was in place of Musharraf, I would have been harsher to them and their supporters than Musharraf government.
How can you judge Mush popularity by the fact that he is still in power!
Was he elected? Is he answerable to anyone?
A dictators popularity is not gauged by the people, because the dictator isnt answerable to the people.. If Mush were elected, you might have a case, but as a dictator he is nothing but a dictator...
And I can see you dont like the word unpopular, so lets put it this way, if poles are anything to go by, there are MORE people who DONT support this dictator then do, so he really is MORE unpopular then popular.... Is that better?
In a fair election, Mush would NOT be in power according to these poles.
Fact of the matter is, Mush is in power because he has the danda of the Army and riot police on his side.. Anyone who is against him is made to disappear...
And the fact that you and your type will do anything to avoid having the blame put on the jihadists is indicative of your desire to protect them when they have previously not only issued threats but actually carried out suicide bombings, not only in Pakistan, but around the world. There is no musharraf in other countries, but jihadis have attacked and killed people there as well. Do you blame musharraf for bombs in Afghanistan, Iraq, UK, Spain, Algeria, Turkey etc.?
i have been calling for the forced removal of fata militants for the best part of a year
you seem to be suffering from this over zealousness to create and nuture extremism then promise to fight it for the future
i have the balance right, for a country whos capital is ISLAM-abad and a route which is least destabilising but very effective
Realistically, Mush and army are the only ones who have the ability to fight the terrorists. Ifti and his lawyer army can't be much help here, sorry.
Fine, then the Army should go fight the terrorsits, what the hell are they doing in politics, and why are the dealing with CJ and lawers? Armies are made to fight, not to decide who should or shouldnt be the CJ!
Let me break it down for you...
The CHIEF JUSTICE is a Chief Justice, and the Lawyers are lawyers, simple..
Mush is or was a general, but unlike the CJ he wasnt doing his job. MUSH is NOT doing his job and NEITHER is the CJ..
Fine, then the Army should go fight the terrorsits, what the hell are they doing in politics, and why are the dealing with CJ and lawers? Armies are made to fight, not to decide who should or shouldnt be the CJ!
Let me break it down for you...
The CHIEF JUSTICE is a Chief Justice, and the Lawyers are lawyers, simple..
Mush is or was a general, but unlike the CJ he wasnt doing his job. MUSH is NOT doing his job and NEITHER is the CJ..
Does that make any sense to you now?
Army can't fight effectively on it's own, with no support of other members of the society.
The fact that Mush is unpopular is undeniable. However, when people try to skew that fact to suit their own agendas is what pisses me off the most. People don’t dislike Mush because he is so much worse than other “leaders” Pakistan has had in the past. They just don’t like anyone. I found this article from the Toronto Star eerily reverberating these same exact thoughts:
The setting of Benazir Bhutto’s assassination comes with its own sick symmetry: the once and future prime minister of Pakistan was slain today at the very site that claimed the country’s first premier in a hail of bullets 56 years ago.
Thus does the already infamous Liaquat Bagh park - so named for its first victim, founding prime minister Liaqat Ali Khan - become more miserable still, offering another bloody signpost in the brutal political life of a country that has lost its way yet again.
When the *Toronto Star *went wandering through this dismal Rawalpindi landmark last month we found it nearly empty, with Bhutto herself barricaded 16 kilometres away behind barbed-wire police lines in the neighbouring capital of Islamabad.
De facto martial law had just been imposed by embattled President Pervez Musharraf, and the fallout was that Bhutto would not be allowed to stage her promised mass rally at Liaquat.
To be absolutely certain the Bhutto protest went nowhere, Pakistani riot police saturated the park’s patchy turf with water cannons and cleared passersby with swinging batons.
Yet one day later, when the *Star *entered the park, the scene at Liaquat was a pastoral testament to the sheer fluidity of Pakistani politics, which continues to defy all prediction. The water-cannon ministrations evaporated overnight, leaving the parched brown promenade open for the resumption of what passes for park life in sprawling Rawalpindi.
Gaggles of card players lazed on the grass engrossed in games of rang. Twosomes and foursomes played badminton. A mullah shared lessons from the Qur’an with a group of young students. And not a single cop in sight.
What was most striking about our encounter with the park-going Pakistanis at Liaquat that day was just how little they cared for Bhutto, or anyone else on the political slate of coming election.
Blinded from real news by Musharraf’s crackdown on the media, the park-going Pakistanis who spoke to the *Star *offered acute cynicism in the absence of actual information. The street-level dispassion extended equally to Musharraf, Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.
When the *Star *called for a show of hands among the gathering crowd, not a single arm went up in favour of Bhutto’s political comeback. Musharraf scored infinitesimally better with one lone supporter, while four hands when up at the mention of Sharif.
As an afterthought, we offered through our interpreter a fourth option, “None of the above.” At least four dozen hands shot skyward. Such indifference might come as a surprise to foreign watchers impressed by the British and U.S.-backed reb*ng of Bhutto as democracy’s Joan of Arc. But for Pakistanis who remember well her earlier tenure as prime minister, fresh doubts are par for the course.
“Bhutto owns people. She owns entire villages. She was raised in an environment of almost royal privilege, so for us to see her mouthing all the right sounds about democracy is difficult, to say the least,” said an Islamabad surgeon, who spoke to the *Star *on condition of anonymity when apprised of the scene at Liaquat Park last month.
“Maybe she believes it. But if she does, her first battle should be for the restoration of Pakistan’s independent judiciary, rather than the battle to win back power for her party base. Unfortunately, many of us see her as more interest in real power than real justice.”
Contacted again yesterday in the wake of Bhutto’s killing, the surgeon offered a view only slightly tempered by fresh tragedy.
“It is horrible. I mourn this loss, of course. I still was not convinced Bhutto was destined to bring real change to Pakistan,” he said.
“But more than for Bhutto, I mourn for Pakistan. We were in trouble before this day. We are in more trouble now.”
And the fact that you and your type will do anything to avoid having the blame put on the jihadists is indicative of your desire to protect them when they have previously not only issued threats but actually carried out suicide bombings, not only in Pakistan, but around the world. There is no musharraf in other countries, but jihadis have attacked and killed people there as well. Do you blame musharraf for bombs in Afghanistan, Iraq, UK, Spain, Algeria, Turkey etc.?
You CANT fight Jihadis if your country is wracked in political turmoil! Musharaf is increasing the political turmoil at the expense of fighting terrorists...
He needs the support of the people, but he has been actively undermining the fight against terrorists by creating political problems...
You get it?>!?
Army can't fight effectively on it's own, with no support of other members of the society.
LOL... Sometimes you claim they dont need anyone, then you claim they do! Before the CJ and Lawyer Army wer useless, now they are neccesary! You are the master of double talk Khekashan.
The Army cant fight effectively because Musharaf is to busy being a politician and not paying attention to his ACTUAL jb, whihc is being a general.
Your actually coerrect, Mushu and the Army need support, but where is that support going to come from if he is arresting Lawyers, banning media and Judiciary? LOL, are you and the MQM going to step up and do the fighting?!?!
I for one hope that somebody cleans out the terrorist mess along our borders for us, because our leaders are never goign to have enough balls to do it. Especially after Benazir's assassination, I doubt anybody is going to step up and take a tough stance against them. *The Army could and would, but they have been weakened by the 'Anti Govt', 'Anti Musharraf' sentiment. *
A limited invasion of Western areas of Pakistan is called for!
Oh Puhleaaseeee! Musharraf and Associates have had 6+ years to do something, the only thing they've managed to do is allow the extremists to thrive and even take over Swat for sometime, and build a partial fence on the border. That's what the U.S. got for its billions in aid, all the rest was firecrackers for show and tell.
The truth is bitter i know but believe me, he hasn't put a significant dent in Al Q's network. I myself would love nothing more than to have them finished altogether and i was his biggest supporter when he vowed to stand with the U.S. and do the good deed but he has only been gulping the billions and not distributing them where they belong. Period!
Pretty soon Musharraf's corrupt regime will surpass the ENTIRE time BB and Nawas were in power, but now we have to compare this low life dictator to them no matter what, despite how corrupt he is. Its been 8 years, things have gone from bad to worse under this dictator. Its time the army starts doing whats its supposed to do and leave the government in the hands of elected leaders.
You CANT fight Jihadis if your country is wracked in political turmoil! Musharaf is increasing the political turmoil at the expense of fighting terrorists...
He needs the support of the people, but he has been actively undermining the fight against terrorists by creating political problems...
You get it?>!?
Political problems are created by you guessed, it the politicians. They're the ones who always like to attack the current govnt in power just to score political points. You can't fight with these bunch of fifth columnists in your midst. Democracy will only work with responsible people, not those who make wild accusations without any proof.
musharrafs popularity?