Re: Torture Torture and more torture
^ i dont see any difference between those labled as terrorist by americans and the ones torturing prisoners. u both try to justify abuse ( in any form).
u both are eik he thali k chattay battay.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
^^ Fine. You're a person who sees no difference between someone killing and beheading innocent people and someone else making the killer/murderer bark like a dog. Just a little difference of opinion is all.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
It is a violation of the US consitution. You guys really do love your country, enough to destory the basic foundations it is built on.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
CM, where in the US constitution is tortured forbidden? What chapter/section?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Why is it a violation of the US Constitution? Because YOU say it is? I don’t think the US Supreme Court has said that the US Constitution forbids enemy combatants captured in Afghanistan or other foreign countries and held in Gitmo from being forced to bark like a dog or be straddled by a female US soldier. Wanna enlighten us and post the case counselor?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Sure. You forget the clause about cruel and unusual punishment. The US govt is bound by that constitution is it not?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Assuming that the 8th Amendment applies to the conduct of US soldiers holding enemy combatants captured in foreign countries as prisoners in Cuba, pray tell, where has the US Supreme Court indicated that forcing someone to bark like a dog violates that provision? I’ve never heard of a case arguing that “invasion of space” constitutes cruel and unusual punishment either. Neither has the issue of hanging pictures of scantilly clad women around the neck ever been brought up.
Pretty soon I expect you will claim that throwing a piece of cheese into one of these subhuman’s cage and making him eat it like a mouse constitutes torture too. You make me laugh. 
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
You may have never heard it that doesn't mean it isn't. Its pretty simple. You violate a person's religious and cultural values to break them. That is cruel and unusual.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Does it exist CM? Or are you just making things up again? If some Supreme Court cases exist to prove your point and you know about them, just post the names. Easy enough isn’t it?
Now give us a little bark before you start to :google: .
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
[QUOTE]
- was forced to bark like a dog,
- was forced to stand for prolonged periods,
- had his facial hair shaved off,
- had pictures of scantily clad women hung round his neck,
- was forcibly injected with fluids after refusing food and water,
- was straddled by a woman soldier. [/quote] mv: A question, do you think this behaviour wud be allowed and defended in a prison based within America?
A simple Yes, No would suffice.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Its simple. The US govt has to abide by the US constitution and it forbids cruel and unusual punishment does it not?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Ma: I assume you’re talking about a prison in the US that is holding people who violated US criminal laws. Since the topic is about “torture”, the correct question is whether any of these activities would be viewed as “torture” if conducted in a prison based within America holding people who violated criminal laws. For 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6, I’m pretty sure the answer is NO under almost any set of circumstances. As to #2, more facts would be needed.
Fact is, in America, prisoners have a whole bunch of rights that do not flow specifically from the US Constitution. They flow from federal, state and local laws as well as a prison’s own internal policies and procedures.
But, you see, there is absolutely no compelling reason to provide the same rights that prisoners in US jails and prisons have to the terrorists in Gitmo. The basis of the incarceration and the application of the principle of rehabilitation are quite different. We do not have any vision of rehabilitating any of the hard-core dead enders at Gitmo. We do not look forward to them being law abiding productive citizens and good neighbors when they get released. They are in Gitmo to prevent them from engaging in future terrorist activities and to obtain information from in the hopes of preventing other terrorist incidents.
Your brain appears to be stuck on the “reload” function. Try re-booting so you can input some new information in there.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
if that was your point from the beginning, you should have articulated it…and i agree - that is actually a good argument. the violation of our constitution offends me FAR more than some jihadi being force-fed or given a lapdance.
this thread title should have read:
“Violations of the US consitution, Violations of the US consitution, and more Violations of the US consitution”
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
you ask for a yes no answer an you get 3 whole paras. :-)
i dinnae mention torture, but still, your answer in the negative pretty much says it all.
[quote]
But, you see, there is absolutely no compelling reason to provide the same rights that prisoners in US jails and prisons have to the terrorists in Gitmo.
[/quote]
no compelling reason mv? being human is the only reason you need. ppl wud not have half the complaints they have against gitmo, if it wasnt for these acts. the british prisnors released from there already have been released without any charge. They were innocent and am sure there are plenty more in there. Still, innocent or not, no amount of excuses justifies abuse, fullstop. would you condone and accept abuse of any US POW soldiers captured by Al qaeda?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
That is simply not so Ma. Being human entitles you to “basic human rights.” The number of “basic human rights” are really quite small. Indeed, if you were to raise the “right” not to be made to bark like a dog or the right not to have your space invaded to the level of “basic human right,” you’d actually be trivializing those few basic human rights that really do exist.
Prisoners in the US are entitled to (1) basic human rights ** PLUS ** (2) a whole bunch of other man made rights that are created by statutes and policies.
What I am saying is that the prisoners in Gitmo are entitled to basic human rights and nothing more. There is no compelling reason to give them other rights as we do our prisoners in America. Being human doesn’t qualify them for a daily telephone call home or a weekly visit from friends. Being human doesn’t qualify them for an hour or two of quality reading time. Being human doesn’t entitle them to a fruit cup for dessert. Being human doesn’t entitle them to have a beard.
I would be overjoyed if the worst treatment that a US POW soldier got from Al Qaida or any other enemy was a forced shave, being forced to wear pictures of scantilly clad women around their necks, being forced to bark like a dog and having their space invaded by being straddled by a female soldier. Frankly, I can’t think of any conflict in my lifetime where Americans have been treated so kindly by our adversaries.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
[quote]
What I am saying is that the prisoners in Gitmo are entitled to basic human rights and nothing more
[/quote]
habibi, am no lawyer k, but what part of basic human rights says you can be humiliated and insulted on a regular basis? you're treading on a thin ice.
[quote]
I would be overjoyed if the worst treatment that a US POW soldier got from Al Qaida or any other enemy was a forced shave, being forced to wear pictures of scantilly clad women around their necks, being forced to bark like a dog and having their space invaded by being straddled by a female soldier. Frankly, I can't think of any conflict in my lifetime where Americans have been treated so kindly by our adversaries.
[/quote]
Alrite, i'll be more specifc. Abu ghraib, would you accept that behaviour? what about physical torture on US POW, would you enjoy that too?
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
stradled by a female? That kind of torture at certain clubs in gitmo's neighborhood (the Florida keys, specifically) will cost you around $20 per song. Capitalism and it's "flithy freedoms" sure has it's quirks...
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
I just love it when you call me “habibi.” 
If being humiliated and insulted on a regular basis violated basic human rights, then they’d outlaw the practice of law and the institution of marriage.
Abu Ghraib was wrong. I also think physical torture is wrong. I don’t think the acts complained of at Gitmo in this article rise anywhere close to Abu Ghraib and don’t think they constitute torture.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
Linked below is a piece that appeared in the Atlantic Monthly in October of '03. It’s a rather long article, but it is a very interesting summary. A couple of thoughts.
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I am convinced that there is a significant difference between “coercion”, and torture. As the Bowden article points out, the twisting of limbs and electrical shock frequently yield the wrong result. A great deal of the Gitmo experience may be theatre. Certainly the reputation of Guantanamo is far greater than the reality, so in a way, the threat of going to Guantanamo may well be serving as an effective negociating point with bad guys world-wide.
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To some degree the Government of the United States has a duty to protect its citizens. It also has the duty to protect certain values. When I hear the types of things that are approved for use in Guantanamo, I must say that I am not that alarmed. Sleep deprivation, cold, food deprivation, people in the real world go through these things every day. Loud music? Ask a parent. Wet, cold, heat? Everyday. These things in and of themselves are not damaging, and are not long lasting. Stress positions? Perhaps that crosses some lines, but we are not talking about electrodes, blood, and broken bones.
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Guantanamo has a limited capacity. I cannot imagine that if I were the warden there that one of my principle concerns was properly utilizing the space. The occasional goat herder or shepard boy who gets caught up in some sweep would not make a very useful prisoner, and could not possibly be worth the space he is taking up. Guantanamo is more than likely filled with some very wicked and evil people. Those people would indeed harm the US, if they have not already. If Al Qaedda would please be so kind as to wear uniforms, ID cards and dog tags, we would not have any goat herders.
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Undoubtedly the need for brutal treament has damaged the image of the US. It has confused and muddied “Human Rights”. I cannot help but think that there really is an acid test of common sense here. Given the choice, who would you rather be imprisoned by? Certainly Norway and Switzerland would be nice places to be imprisoned. Almost any third world country, any Muslim country, would certainly be significanly worse than imprisonment by the US. There might be a few nice european countries, but not many where you are safer and better treated. Just ask yourself, if I had to be imprisoned, would I prefer the US, or (fill in the blank). Nine times out of ten most rational people would still choose the US. This convinces me that we are not embarking on a thoughly slippery slope, and that most of the world believes that Guantanamo is the exception for exceptional purposes.
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From a purely Darwinistic viewpoint, the tough survive. When I first came to Gupshup, many here felt that the US would never face the vaunted Afghan fighters on the ground, but would be restricted to bombing the ground. Then the same pundits proclaimed that the US would not take casualties in Iraq, and would run away at the first sign of pain. Many felt that the US could never effectively fight the Jihadis. So Guantanamo erases all doubts. We will play tough. We will not cave to Amnesty and Human Rights Watch when we legitimately beleive that we are within the bounds of propriety. When Tabloids proclaim “Torture” based on photos of people going off to Guantanamo in hoods, then we have abandoned a rational legal process of balancing a legitimate right to self-defense from pie in the sky idealists who lack any comprehension about the changing nature of the war we face. The US will not be easy prey because we have gone soft. Al Qaedda had to believe that ultimately we did not have the will as a people to fight a ruthless enemy. They were wrong.
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What many Americans will not say, but I will dare to is that we trust our Government to come to the right balance. Well meaning people will battle out the risks and rewards for our people. Politicians, journalists, Courts and popular culture will eventually reach a safe equilibrium. The US has been at the forefront of Human Rights for decades. We will sort it out and still accomplish our goals.
Re: Torture Torture and more torture
OG: long post dude. i'll check it later.
mv: you got my point. i rest my case. :-)