This time-Philipines

Most of the world is no longer interested in legalese and arguments about details. As Tenet reminded America yesterday, that AlQaida is quite capable of attacking US again on US territory. So we, americans, can ignore this threat at our own peril. Buying into this song and dance from the AlQaida supporters is just going to cause more harm. The issue for the muslim countries is boiling down to is whether they are going to join the rest of the world and progress in science etc. or they going to whip up the emotions of the people and slip into isolation. Here is an article by a malaysian and I think he expresses this view quite clearly:


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-10-2002_pg3_2
Op-ed: How Washington and West will exploit Bali bombings

Farish A Noor

If America, Britain and Australia are so concerned about the excessive violence and the culture of terror that exists in Indonesia today, one has to ask the obvious question: Why did they not speak out when human rights abuses were taking place in places like East Timor, Aceh and Irian in the past

In the wake of the bombings in Bali and Sulawesi, Indonesia, a number of western governments have jumped on Washington’s “anti-terror” bandwagon with gusto. Overnight, the government of Britain claimed that it would renew its efforts to wipe out terrorism the world over, and that it would lend its support to America’s campaign to promote itself as the world’s global policeman. The Australian government was also quick to blurt out the right words at the right time: Australian politicians claimed that the bombings in Bali was their own “September 11” and “ground zero”. Tactless and opportunistic as it was, few of these Western politicians cared to point out that the primary victims of the bombings in Bali and Sulawesi have been, and will be, the Indonesians themselves.

Already suffering under the heavy yoke of a dysfunctional state and an economy on the brink of collapse, the people of Indonesia will now have to pay an exorbitant price for the attacks on Bali recently. Foreign investors have threatened to pull out of the country en masse, while tourist bookings to Indonesia — a country that lives on foreign revenue earnings — have been cut.

The most shameful thing about the attacks on Bali — apart from the scale of horror and destruction meted out by the mysterious terrorists — is the way in which the governments of the West as well as the ASEAN region have used it to turn the tables against Jakarta. While it cannot be denied that militant and extremist groups do indeed exist in Indonesia (the Lashkar Jihad, Fron Pembela Islam and Barisan Mujahidin Indonesia come to mind), few western governments were as vocal in their condemnation of the human rights abuses carried out against the people of Indonesia during the Suharto era. In fact, the very same governments that are harrying the beleaguered leaders of Indonesia today — America and Australia — were among the closest tacit supporters of the Suharto regime from the mid-1960s to 1998.

If America, Britain and Australia are so concerned about the excessive violence and the culture of terror that exists in Indonesia today, one has to ask the obvious question: Why did they not speak out when human rights abuses were taking place in places like East Timor, Aceh and Irian in the past? And if they are so concerned about the culture of violence that has become commonplace in the country now, why did they lend their own support and military assistance to the leaders of the armed forces and covert operations units in that country for so long?

The answer, as usual, lies in the vagaries and vicissitudes of realpolitik. The developed nations of the West have often used human rights and fundamental liberties as bargaining chips in international diplomacy, citing “security concerns” and/or “investor confidence” as the main reasons why these issues are put on the table. But the diplomatic records of the US, Britain and Australia clearly show that the governments of these countries (regardless of who is in power and which party rules) have always put their own economic, political and strategic interests before all else. This is why the record of the western states in promoting human rights the world over is so unbalanced and inconsistent. The same US government which today chides Jakarta for not doing enough to curb the activities of militant and extremist groups has said precious little about the abuses of human rights and routinised use of violence by its own allied client states like Israel.

Now that Indonesia has been drawn into the web of the “war against terror”, the political elites of the country are bound to come under pressure to toe the line and dance according to Washington’s tune. Already Indonesia’s President Megawati Sukarnoputri has been put under tremendous pressure to accept Western assistance and advice — something which reminds us of the bad old days when the British empire used to appoint “Resident-Advisors” as part of its effort to extend and expand its sphere of indirect colonial rule. With the flood of such “security experts” and “advisors” one wonders how long the government can maintain the façade of independent rule and sovereignty.

As in the case of Pakistan, whose leadership seems to be losing the battle for hearts and minds on an hourly basis, the governments of Indonesia and the other ASEAN countries are fighting an uphill battle to maintain their grip on both the state and society. Indirect intervention and “assistance” on the part of the US and its powerful Western allies will do little to boost the credibility and standing of the leaders of Asia, and no doubt this gulf of credibility and authority can only expand as US intervention into the region increases.

We may never know who was really responsible for the horrific bombings in Bali that claimed so many innocent lives. Already the public has been overwhelmed by a tidal wave of senseless and incoherent information (or disinformation, depending on one’s point of view), and sentiments have overtaken the redoubt of reason and common sense. In the midst of the furore that followed, few media commentators, academic experts or politicians have cared to ask how and why such acts can take place at all. Neither have the root causes of terrorism, which are to be found in the structural, economic and political inequalities of the world today, been discussed.

However one thing is for sure. Cynicism aside, the governments of the West have been the quickest to pounce on the tragedy in Bali and it is they who have managed to turn the tables against the governments of Indonesia and ASEAN to their benefit. Just how this so-called “war against terror” will proceed and how great the human costs of this conflict will be remains an open question at this stage. But the deaths of so many innocent tourists in Bali this weekend have certainly been instrumentalised as never before.

Dr Farish A Noor is a Malaysian political scientist and human rights activist. He is also a member of the International Movement for a JUST world (www.just-international.org), a Malaysian NGO which campaigns for global justice in the international political order

Let this one pan out for a bit Imdad Ali, If S. Korea is shown to be a threat to the United States or it's Allies (one way of doing this would be to pass along WMD or the knowledge of creating them to terrorists) the United States along with its allies will act upon them. At this point I believe diplomatic means can and will solve this crisis.

Bottomline is America has bad bad foreign policy and there is no proof of al-qaeda exists, JI exists..heck there is no proof muslims did it .even if muslims did it we don't consider them good muslims. but..but as long as America has a bad bad foreign policy innocent Balis, Aussies, Philpinos etc etc will get killed.

Here are some reports on the consequences for muslims living in these lands. AlQaida and their ilk want a war between the muslims and non-muslims so they can establish a “Khilafat”. Is anyone asking any average muslim anywhere whether he wishes to be recruited in this war? If this keeps up, Europe is likely not going to be far behind. I guess UK will be leading the change. I guess then Canada and USA.


http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/10/17/australia.muslims.reut/index.html

Australian Muslims fear Bali backlash
Friday, October 18, 2002 Posted: 2:24 AM EDT (0624 GMT)

SYDNEY, Australia (Reuters) – In a Sydney suburb, where signs are in Arabic and women in hijabs buy halal meat, few Australian Muslims want to raise their heads over the parapet to talk about the bombs in Bali that killed scores of their countrymen.

As in many Western countries, anti-Muslim sentiment surged in Australia after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, blamed on Islamic militants.

Now, with up to 119 Australians among the 181 people killed in the Indonesian resort island of Bali, many Australian Muslims fear the backlash is likely to be worse.

Already, a Muslim school in Sydney and the imam’s house adjoining it have been attacked by assailants armed with bricks, and a mosque in Melbourne fire-bombed.

“It’s opened a new wound,” said Nasser Alameddine, 25, a Lebanese Australian working in his family’s supermarket in Sydney’s western suburb of Bankstown.

In a road lined with a Turkish kebab shop, an Arabic music store, an Islamic bank and other Muslim-owned shops, only Alameddine was willing to speak publicly about the rift between Australia’s 500,000 Muslims and the Anglo-Celtic mainstream.

“It’s dangerous to talk, you get threats,” said a Lebanese businessman who did not want to be identified.

While attacks on Muslims are perpetrated by a minority of Australia’s 20 million people, anti-Islamic tirades on talkback radio and in newspaper letters pages have many cowering in fear.

Islamic associations say Muslim women who insist on wearing their hijabs, or veils, cannot get work.

Muslims face harassment riding trains into the city. If they go outside their neighborhoods, they feel uncomfortable or even unsafe.

Their cause was not helped by the recent convictions of several Lebanese youths for gang raping white Australians.

Tolerance
Prime Minister John Howard has called on Australians to show tolerance and not to point fingers at the innocent.

Yet with September 11 blamed on Osama bin Laden’s militant al Qaeda network and suspicions over the Bali bombings falling on an affiliated Islamic group, Jemaah Islamiya, Australian Muslims constantly find themselves having to defend their faith.

“I am tired of Western leaders pedaling this sycophantic, and incorrect line about Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance. It is not,” wrote a John Mayberry in a letter to Sydney tabloid The Daily Telegraph.

“It is about time we woke up to the fact that the problem of world terrorism today lies firmly rooted in Islam.”

Police have stepped up patrols around mosques.

But police have also angered Muslim leaders by refusing to treat the latest attacks on Islamic centers as hate crimes.

Police say the stone-throwing in Sydney was vandalism and are treating the fire-bombing in Melbourne as ordinary arson.

Motivation
“You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out that a bunch of youths … attacking a mosque and the imam within his house with three children and his wife, I mean what other thing would motivate them?” said Kuranda Seyit of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils.

Muslims trace their roots in Australia back to Afghan camel drivers who opened up the arid outback in the 19th century.

Now made up mainly of Lebanese and Turks, Muslims hope history will not repeat itself. Many of the Afghan camel drivers were driven out of the country they had lived in for up to 30 years when racial intolerance swept the land in the late 1800s.

For modern Australian Muslims who are as Australian as anyone else, the growing antagonism is more than just a frustration.

“The Muslim community normally would react (to Bali) the same way as any other section of the Australian community in that we would be out there trying to support the injured, trying to give support to the grieving families,” said Keysar Trad of the Lebanese Muslims Association.

“Now in the circumstances … unfortunately you end up having to divert some of your attention towards protecting elements in your community, protecting women, protecting children at school.”

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Let this one pan out for a bit Imdad Ali, If S. Korea is shown to be a threat to the United States or it's Allies (one way of doing this would be to pass along WMD or the knowledge of creating them to terrorists) the United States along with its allies will act upon them. At this point I believe diplomatic means can and will solve this crisis.
[/QUOTE]

Why would diplomacy work with the communist dictator of South Korea who has killed his people, but it won't work with the Arabist dictator of Iraq who has killed his own people? One of these countries has openly admitted it has nuclear weapons or is working towards them, while the truth is not as clear for the other country. Guess which country the US will attack?

To many Muslims this will seem hypocritical that the Muslim country is being picked on, while a non-Muslim country is being dealt with differently. With that said, I do not believe that to be the reason. The reason is that the Iraqi army can be easily defeated, which is perfectly understandable from the American perspective of projecting its power by destroying weak nations. But please don’t make a fool of people by saying that America wants to liberate the Iraqi people, because no one will buy that hogwash. American foreign policy is based around purely selfish national interests, and there is nothing wrong with that, since most countries have similar foreign polices, but at the very least, most countries are not as arrogant, self-righteous, and morally smug as the US is. I cringe whenever I have to listen to a Bush speech and his pompous “we own the world” style.

The death of a muslim will be repaid in blood. An eye for an eye. You Christains should be familar with that, for that is the doctrine the US uses to attack others. They kill muslims, they get killed. Pretty simple, it is as Bush put it us versus them.

:flower1:
i can almost guarantee that, out of the entire Muslim population, a very small proportion of Muslims would want any innocent people - whether Muslim or nonMuslim - to die. IMHO, what has been missing so far from the discourses regarding terrorist attacks around the world, is that the inhabitants of these regions have developed a deep familiarity with terrorism. It’s nothing new for them. Ask the people of Indonesia about terrorism and they will tell you about Suharto’s regime, they will tell you of the British arms and American diplomatic immunity Suharto enjoyed. They will tell you of terrorism for two decades until, at last, the world (not just the US) chose to open its eyes. It seems to ME, that it’s only when American or ‘western’ lives are in the frontlines, that we get this type of media exposure and hysterics. We seem to willingly forget that terrorism is not a 21st century phenomenon and the victims have historically always been the most dispossessed (peasants and shepherds), never heard of unless their concern is embroiled with our ‘vested interests’.

Diplomacy has been tried over and over again with Iraq and it has failed, hopefully this time around it won't fail or there will be consequences. Diplomacy was given a chance in Afganistan but it failed as well. Why wouldn't diplomacy be given a chance in S. Koreas case, because they are not Muslims?

CM, what are you talking about "You Christains should be familar with that, for that is the doctrine the US uses to attack others" is the U.S. now a Christian state? Do you want this to be a war of relgious? The U.S. does not go out and try to kill innocent people but that is the goal of these terror groups who bomb night clubs, buses and so on. Using terror to force policy changes won't work or everytime someone wanted something there way they would turn to terror, and those who do that are not really humans but barbaric animales.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Diplomacy has been tried over and over again with Iraq and it has failed, hopefully this time around it won't fail or there will be consequences. Diplomacy was given a chance in Afganistan but it failed as well. Why wouldn't diplomacy be given a chance in S. Koreas case, because they are not Muslims?

CM, what are you talking about "You Christains should be familar with that, for that is the doctrine the US uses to attack others" is the U.S. now a Christian state? Do you want this to be a war of relgious? The U.S. does not go out and try to kill innocent people but that is the goal of these terror groups who bomb night clubs, buses and so on. Using terror to force policy changes won't work or everytime someone wanted something there way they would turn to terror, and those who do that are not really humans but barbaric animales.
[/QUOTE]

HOw much does the US pay you for publishing such trash?
Count all the "secular" christian countries that have been heavily attacked, bombed and/or ignored by the USA in last 30 years?
I'm all ears!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Akif what is your suggestion? Submit to Islamic Militants? This group is connected with the al Qaeda terror network.
[/QUOTE]

Isnt this the same analogy both sides are using?

Ask this question to Alqaeda, and their argument is, why should they submit to the whims of the US? Ask it to Israel, and they say, why should we submit to Palestinians? Ask the Palestinians, and they say, why should we submit to Israel.

Fact is, by taking the right step, noone will be submitting to anybody...but sadly, when you are so drunk with power, you fail to see that, even if the whole world beats a drum next to your ear.