This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

I would prefer to post it here :slight_smile:
instead of Rel. or Gen. forums
There it will just get lost in the stupid war of the sects :grumpy:

I seriously think we need to change our approach towards tableegh e Islam

Now Hold on - Before you start issuing fatwas and kill me :smilestar:

Most of the religious people (Although there is no such concept in islam, about being a professional leader of the religion), that I have met , have failed to impress me, due to their sheer lack of knowledge. My role model would be someone who knows not only about Islam, but also about other religions of the world. He has to be at par with whats happening in the other parts of the world. Our so called religious leaders (people who represent the FACE of islam in the eyes of the world, Pesh Imams, religious scholars, leaders of islamic parties etc) are primary or middle pass persons. Most of life spent in the maddarsa, became Hafiz e Quran. Absolutely no knowledge about science or technology or philosophy etc.

The kind of tableegh that these guys are doing is, sorry to say, not in the right direction. The info that they try to stuff down the throats of the inquisitive persons revolves around what is FARZ, How to do wuzoo, What not to do while during wuzoo, What is the dua we should recite before going on a jouney, What is GUNAH, What will happen if we do the FARZ, what will happen if do Gunah (We will either go to paradise , get hoors and stuff, OR go to hell).

Thats like telling a kid, listen if you are a good boy I will give you a lollypop , If you are bad I am gonna punish you. Come on, gimme a break!!! , thats not the BASIC teachings of islam. WHERE IS THE BASIC PHILOSOPHY about the omnipotent creator and the concept of SUBMISSION to HIM. This secondary stuff comes at a MUCH LATER stage when the fundamentals have been dealt with :smack:

Then again,about namaz, They will always quote “Jiss nay aik waqt ki namaz qaza ki uss kay chehray say noor khatam ho jaiey ga” … AGREED

But if I tell all this to a newbie (remember we are talking about TABLEEGH - to a person who is NOT a muslim as YET), he will probably get intimidated. Its hard to explain to him the concept of CHEHRAY SAY NOOR KHATAM HONA- at this stage. He has to be given simple , logical explanations , point for point, WHY islam is better than others, in the way we socialize, the way we do business, the way we eat, sleep, walk, etc etc etc.

Well anyway, our religious personalities need to get out of their protective shells and comfort zones and try to get some first hand knowledge of the world. Poora mulk jala kay phaink diyaa Danish Cartoons kay chakkar main, agar kissi say yeh pooch lo kay Denmark kidhar hay, tu kissi ko nahi pata hoga :rolleyes:

Dr. Zakir Naik is one person that I absolutely adore and he is my ideal :hugz:
I wish we had more like him.

Okay - now go ahead and start Uncle Stalker Bashing :frowning:

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

:salam:
I agree to every single word you said
You mentioned Dr. Zakir Naik. In dec 2004, he invited former Christian Preacher Yusuf Estes from USA to india .. hear how he was approached from an egyptian muslim to become a muslim whereas he was trying to make the egyptian a christian.

This story tells exactly what your point is:

http://www.watchislam.com/videos/video.php?vid=3

AND YES, thread does belong in Cafe` …

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

:jazak:

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

i agree :k:

we need aalims not moulvis

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

Its one thing to not agree with the method of their teachings... but to disrespect **maulvies, and alims **like that is totally inappropiate was really uncalled for.

I can give you numerous alims and ullemas who can logically explain alot of things to you.

These 'rice in beard' type maulvies might exist, but we're not lacking that many ullemas who are total -for a lack of better term, "un perhh jahill type".

Sure, Dr. Zakir Naik is a good debater, speaker, etc etc. But he does lack alot of qualification in the field of isnad and ijaza, from what I know.

Besides that, he has good talks on islam.

The point is, not all Alims, and Hafiz, are what you speak of...They're more intellectual than you think.

Also, islam doesn't always need rationales, and logic to explain itself.
Thats the beauty of believing in an unseen God.

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

Its okay crescent :bb: We are bound to have differences in opinion. You think of it as disrespect, I dont.
Again, you have a set of personalities who in your opinion are better qualified to do the job. I have yet to see them. Maybe if I see and meet enough I may change my opinion.

But what I have written above reflects and covers the situation in General
(not the General Forum :stuck_out_tongue: )

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

crescent agree with u 100 %

[QUOTE]

people who represent the FACE of islam in the eyes of the world, **Pesh Imams, religious scholars, leaders of islamic parties etc)

[/QUOTE]

app ik aise cheez ki fazeelat say inkar ker rahay hain jis kay hadees or quran main itnay fazail bayan hoye hain ?

[QUOTE]
*are primary or middle pass persons. Most of life spent in the maddarsa, became Hafiz e Quran. Absolutely no knowledge about science or technology or philosophy etc.
*

[/QUOTE]

totly disagree with that statment

hadees main yeh bhi hay k jo *quran hifz keray woh qaymat main 10 logon *

ki shaffat keray ga...

hadees main yeh bhi hay kay *makhlloq main behtreen woh hay jo quran perhta or perhata hay *

hadees main yeh bhi hay jo Alim hay woh Anbia kay wurasa hain

hades main yeh hay kay Allah kay nazdeek behtreen gher Masjid hay

or app kehtay hain kay yeh madaris main rehtay hain inko kia pata ?
lakin yeh kis hadees main hay kay jis kay pass science ya techo ka ilm hay woh un Ulma say berter hay jo middle pass hain ?

app nay kabhi kissi doctor kay achay honay kay ley shert lagaye hay kay woh techi or philosphi main bhi acha ho ? ik best doctor woh hay jo medical kay tmam maloomat rakhta ho or its enought for his profession

quraan ko samjhnay kay hadees ko jaanay kay ley or zindgee ko islam kay mutabiq guzarnay kay DEEN ka ilm zaroore hay

sorry uncle falker app ki yeh post sirf ulma or hufza ko degrade ker rahe hay

wat is doctor naik?..woh jitna bhi ilm rakhta ho lakin jo ALIM ka maqam or derja hay woh kissi ka nahi ....

kis sirf yehe non muslim ko muslman ker raha hay is say pehlay kia log muslman nahi hotay thay ? islam nahi phylta tha ?

come on !

sirf ik shaks ki tareef kernay main app nay DEEn kay Asal logoon jin ki fazeelat main ahdees bhare pere hay un ki ahmiyat ** ko he khatam ***ker diya is say baree nadanee kia ho gee*

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

** double post **

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

hadees main yeh bhi hay jo Alim hay woh Anbia kay wurasa hain
Agreed - Laikin Aalim hona Shart hay

hades main yeh hay kay Allah kay nazdeek behtreen gher Masjid hay
or app kehtay hain kay yeh madaris main rehtay hain inko kia pata ?
lakin yeh kis hadees main hay kay jis kay pass science ya techo ka ilm hay woh un Ulma say berter hay jo middle pass hain ?
**YES **- iss liyaay kay inhoon nay apnay ilm ko MEHDOOD lar liyaa hay aur apnay khool (shell) main reh rahay hain. Inn ko deeni ilm kay alawa Duniyawi ilm ki bhi zaroorat hay. Agar aisa na hota tu phirr hamain yeh hukum na hota kay “ILM hasil karoo chahay iss kay liyaay tumhain Cheen (China) kyon na jana PaRay” _ I am sure China main deeni ilm hasil karnay nahi jaya ja sakta. They have to be well educated so that they can spread the teachings of islam on the web as well , just as an example (they will have to learn how to use a PC)

app nay kabhi kissi doctor kay achay honay kay ley shert lagaye hay kay woh techi or philosphi main bhi acha ho ? ik best doctor woh hay jo medical kay tmam maloomat rakhta ho or its enought for his profession

Baat Islam ki tableegh ki ho rahi hay - Dont stray from the topic.

sorry uncle falker app ki yeh post sirf ulma or hufza ko degrade ker rahe hay
I appreciate your opinion - Although I dont agree :bb:

wat is doctor naik?..woh jitna bhi ilm rakhta ho lakin jo ALIM ka maqam or derja hay woh kissi ka nahi …
He is one of the most prominent personalities in the Muslim world today. I would recommend that you learn a bit more about him. Try AQ’s link above. Can you name a few prominent Aalims and their contributions in the modern world ? Just for my own information, so I can pursue them and try to learn something :bb:

kis sirf yehe non muslim ko muslman ker raha hay
Jee haaN - Baat yeh ho rahi hay kay agar inhain Mongolia ya Africa bhaij diya jaiey tu kyaa yeh wahan jaa kar kissi aisay shakhs ko islam ki taraf maiel kar saktay hain joo FILHAL musalman nahi hay. Bear in mind that the christian missionaries working in that part of the world are coming from a more educated background (I mean they have ANSWERS to questions and are more aware of what is happening around them)

**sirf ik shaks ki tareef kernay main app nay DEEn kay Asal logoon jin ki fazeelat main ahdees bhare pere hay un ki ahmiyat ****ko he khatam **ker diya is say baree nadanee kia ho gee

AGREED _ Laikin first we have to conclude that yeh WOHI loog hain jin ki tareef main ahdees bhari PaRee hain. Ya unn Ahadees main kissi aur criteria ka zikr bhi hay

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

Dr. Zakir Naik is not an alim..just a speaker. He does not have fatwa giving powers.

Hez fully trained in comparative religious debate..and i hope you know thats only one branch of islam.

Just because one person wears a suit and tie, and can talk in English. (Which is alil..) also ive heard Dr. Zakir Naik speak arabic, his tajweed is totalllyyy offf!!! I understood that because hez from the sub continent.

For all we know, half of the ayahs he recites are probably missing words and pronounciations! and in the science of tajweed, thats a *major sin. *

So how can he be better than those that are well versed in Quran...

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

**
[quote]
YES **- iss liyaay kay inhoon nay apnay ilm ko MEHDOOD lar liyaa hay aur apnay khool (shell) main reh rahay hain. Inn ko deeni ilm kay alawa Duniyawi ilm ki bhi zaroorat hay. Agar aisa na hota tu phirr hamain yeh hukum na hota kay "ILM hasil karoo chahay iss kay liyaay tumhain Cheen (China) kyon na jana PaRay*" _ I am sure China main deeni ilm hasil karnay nahi jaya ja sakta. They have to be well educated so that they can spread the teachings of islam on the web as well , just as an example (*they will have to learn how to use a PC)

[/quote]
**

uncle falker > kia app mujhay batain gay yeh hadees ki Sanad kia hay ?

*tmam muhadseen or ulma karam nay is ko mozoo hadees kaha hay yeh ik mangharat qool hay *
*kion kay is ka hadees hona koi bhi nahi sabit ker paya *
*agar app kay pass refrence to mujhay zaror inform kerain *

or is ka hadees na hona ise bat say sabit hay kay APP SALAL llaho alyhi waslam to arab main thay or Ilm hasil kernay kay ley woh kehtay china jaoo ? jahan islam ka nam tak nahi tha

kitnay sahaba ka china jana phir sabit hoa?

sahaba karam to woh jammat thee jin ka ik ik hadees per ammal tha woh china kion na gaye ??

*i know mere bat ka appko yaqeen nahi aye ga is ley main yeh app per chorte hoon is hadees ki sanad app maloom ker ky mujhay bata dain *

[quote]

Baat Islam ki tableegh ki ho rahi hay - Dont stray from the topic.

[/quote]

app nay jub islam ki tableegh kay sath duniya ki taleem ko shert banaya to yeh bat khud sabit hotee hay kay yehee bat app log duniya ki taleem per kion nahi apply kertay ....

[quote]
He is one of the most prominent personalities in the Muslim world today. I would recommend that you learn a bit more about him. Try AQ's link above.
[/quote]

i know about him ..

[quote]

Can you name a few prominent Aalims and their contributions in the modern world ? Just for my own information, so I can pursue them and try to learn something

[/quote]

what do u mean by modren world ? can u explain ? Deen ka maqsad deen ko he phylana hay

imam abu hanifa rehma hu tala , imam shafai rehma hu tala, imam malik rehmahu talla , imam ahamad rehama hu taala

yeh woh log hain jinhoon nay kitnay lakhoon logoon ko muslman kia tha
in ki tasaneef or in ka deen per kia gya kaam ajj tuk zinda hay or usee say perh rahay hain ..

yeh woh logoon hain jinhoo nay hazaroon non muslims ko muslman kia

is kay badd app tora agay ajain barasageer pak o hind ki history main
jub shah walli Ullah rehmatullah jaysay Azeem Alim or wali nay islam ko dobara zinda kia

is kay bad ajain molana anwar shah kashmere jinhoon nay sub say pehlay QAdniyat ka case lara tha

is kay bad ajj kal ulma ki bat kerna chahain

molana taqi usmani rehmatulla , jo ki justice bhi reh chukay hain

molana triq jameel tableege jamat kay rahnuma poree cricket team or kitnat acterss ki zindge in hoon nay apnay bayanat say badal dee

[quote]
Jee haaN - Baat yeh ho rahi hay kay agar inhain Mongolia ya Africa bhaij diya jaiey tu kyaa yeh wahan jaa kar kissi aisay shakhs ko islam ki taraf maiel kar saktay hain joo FILHAL musalman nahi hay. Bear in mind that the christian missionaries working in that part of the world are coming from a more educated background (I mean they have ANSWERS to questions and are more aware of what is happening around them)
[/quote]

wow wat a logic

docter zakir ko sare languages atee hain ? woh log jo na urdu jantay hain na english doctor zakir naik un ko kaysay muslman kerain gay

according to ur law kay aisai logo ko koi muslman nahi ker sakta ?

quran Arbic main kion nazil hoa phir mujhay arbic nahi ate app ko arabic nahi atee ? kia Allah mian ko nahi pata tha kay hum kaisai is ko perhain gay ?

[quote]

AGREED _ Laikin first we have to conclude that yeh WOHI loog hain jin ki tareef main ahdees bhari PaRee hain. Ya unn Ahadees main kissi aur criteria ka zikr bhi hay

[/quote]

u didnt mention any criteria u said Haifz and Alim simple
agar do char apnay ammal say Ulma ko badnam ker rahay hain to woh to Alim kay criteria maina tay hee nahi ..app phir koi lafz istimal kertay

app logoon ko Ulma ki zindgee kay baray main kuch maloom nahi ..is ley app log itnee asane say un per berh berh ker bol laytay ho

yeh woh log hain jin kay baray main Allah fermtay hain

mere bandoon main mujh say sub say zyada dernay walay Ulma hain

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

[QUOTE]

Dr. Zakir Naik is not an alim..just a speaker. He does not have fatwa giving powers.

Hez fully trained in comparative religious debate..and i hope you know thats only one branch of islam.

Just because one person wears a suit and tie, and can talk in English. (Which is alil..) also ive heard Dr. Zakir Naik speak arabic, his tajweed is totalllyyy offf!!! I understood that because hez from the sub continent.

For all we know, half of the ayahs he recites are probably missing words and pronounciations! and in the science of tajweed, thats a *major sin. *

So how can he be better than those that are well versed in Quran...

[/QUOTE]

cresent yeah u r write

mujhay ik hadees ka khulasa yad araha hay

hazrat ummer razi alla tala anhu ik dafa church main gaye thay app salal allaho alyhi waslam un per sakht naraz hoyee kay kia tumharay ley Islam kafe nahi

halknay hazrat ummer razi alla tala anhu sirf yeh jana chah rahay thay kay sabqa kitaboon main kia zikker hay

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

Sahabah Karam thought in Arabic, Not in another language.

People learned Arabic to access the deeen.

They went all over the world, and never gave up arabic to teach the deen.

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

Crescent Brother - WHERE have I said to give up arabic :smack:
I am just asking them to LEARN HEBREW and ENGLISH and FRENCH toooo

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

That reminds, me, it's gunnah to speak english

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

No - Dont stray from the topic shikra
I think I am BAD with words - I dont know how to put my thoughts properly in writing, so somehow my friends here think that I am somehow being un-islamic. Its not like that :(

I would like to see some positive progress- and thats all

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

As I said in my other thread. People who try to learn will ask questions. We have 2 options to reply:

  1. Call names, mud slinging, get dirty, curse each other out, become martyrs. OR
  2. Try to explain with calm manner, without name calling, so the other person is encouraged.

Unfortunately, we all jump to the other person's throat and try to kill them when someone dares ask a question. I am not very good preaching etc, maybe someone with knowledge will answer your question in a better manner. And people who really are out there to teach and spread good, they will choose Option # 2. All the best.

Re: This is not cafe material - BUT I request you to read it

[QUOTE]

That reminds, me, it's gunnah to speak english

[/QUOTE]

its shows u didnt bother to read replies care fully....

app ka haal is waqt yehe hay

woh bat jis ka zikker kaheen na tha
woh bat ussay bare naguwar guzree

[QUOTE]

No - Dont stray from the topic shikra
I think I am BAD with words - I dont know how to put my thoughts properly in writing, so somehow my friends here think that I am somehow being un-islamic. Its not like that

[/QUOTE]

aisa kuch nahi hay

agar koi app ki baat say ikhtilaaf keray to is ka mutlub yeh nahi hota woh appko bura keh raha hay ..

app ko sahe laga app nay kaha ..jo humain sahe laga hum nay kaha

baat sirf itne hotee hay Marnay walay ko DErd ka ahsas nahi ho sakta yeh sirf mar khanay walay ko he pata hota hay

ab is baat ka kia mautlb hay ..is ko samjh lain ya janay dain !