this is for the shia and sunni debaters.

When watcher and sheeraz temporarily banned, this religious forum was sorta nice. didn’t see any shia - sunni threads.

now, i guess its gonna be the same old bickering since the suspension(?)is over. I sorta read this hadith and i think it applies perfectly here;

Rasulullah Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam said, whosoever abandons a fight and he is on haq (truth), Allah will reward him by granting him a palace in the center of jannah. (Tirmidhi)

basically, that refers to giving up an argument if the otherside/person/party/whatever is so stubborn that they are not willing to listen. As long as you know you’re right, no need to waste time if your arguments fall on deaf ears. this can apply to both sunnis and shias..

take what meaning you can from this..

Knowing and quoting hadiths is one thing....appropriately applying them is another thing entirely.

Well said and well referenced nomaan.

Let's see how wise folks here are......

I think its more a war of the egos than anything.

Originally posted by nomaan:
now, i guess its gonna be the same old bickering since the suspension(?)is over

Nomaan:) Come on, think positively, and say inshaAllah

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*Rasulullah Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam said, whosoever abandons a fight and he is on haq (truth), Allah will reward him by granting him a palace in the center of jannah. (Tirmidhi) *

Thank you, thats a lovely hadith. Lets hope people realize its meaning and take heed, inshaAllah…

"basically, that refers to giving up an argument if the otherside/person/party/whatever is so stubborn that they are not willing to listen. As long as you know you're right, no need to waste time if your arguments fall on deaf ears..."
These ayats come to mind referring to this topic: Yunus 41-44
If thy belie you, say: "For me are my deeds and for you are your deeds! You are innocent of what I do, and i am innocent of what you do!"
And among them are some who listen to you, but can you make the deaf to hear- even though they apprehend not?
And among them are some who look at you, but can guide the blind- even though they see not?
Truly! Allah wrongs not mankind in aught, but mankind wrong themselves.


Al.Qamar 54:17 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

Noman, you are right to an extent. I will come back with a much larger and indepth reply.

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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----

[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited December 19, 2000).]

Why don’t you answer my question for now, please:

Why do mealy discussions between Shia/Sunni End up in absurd fights?

Iftari time, bye.

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V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----

Noman, its duty of every Muslim to provide and practice Islam under the true and authentic means (Quran and Sunnah). I don’t think there is anything wrong with discussing “shia-sunni” topics (of course, its good to avoid them…). If you look at ANY Shia-Sunni topics, and you will be able to determine the factor which lead to the deterioration of topic. It always, starts from a Shia, disrespecting, defaming, and insulting the companions of Prophet Mohammad. I guarantee you that you will never see ANY Sunni defaming, disrespecting, and insulting Hazrat Ali or anyone of the Shia Imaams. Such thing never happened and it will never happen in the future. Because, Sunnis all over the world, hold high regards towards Ali and his family. He was a good companion and good cousin of our beloved Prophet and very good 4th Clipha of early Muslim Ummah.

Fights are on one side and telling people about the Huq or asking to is not a fight. The problem starts, when they lose their control when they see no way out of the argument and they end up cursing and using vulgarity to have the thread closed or locked.

Now for example: I posted a verse from Quran, which refers to incident, which happened to Prophet Mohamma when he fled Makkah. With him was Abu Bakr (first Clipha). Now, that verse is pretty simple and self-explanatory. I don’t think one needs imaam or peer sahib to understand that verse. My belief is that Abu Bakr and rest of the Sahaaba were good with their intentions and in their deeds. Abu Bakr and Umar were the closest companions of Mohammad, how can a PROPHET of Allah be fooled by these two guys who later gave their daughters to our prophet.
Shia without any logical and rational answer, come with replies such as: “I feel sorry for you…” Why? A Muslim who supports his arguments with the Quranic verses is to be felt sorry for? I sensed hate and desperation when I read that comment from one of the Shia participant. The same participant, who supported his/her argument to validate superiority of Ali through the use of some Biblical verse, which God knows, how many times it was altered and molested with.

Its duty of every Muslim to strive and stop the wrong which s/he sees happening, anywhere. Its duty of every Muslim to follow what has been revealed and not what has been written down in books, by their Imaams, which has no authority, no authentication, no grounds to stand on whatsoever and on top of that most of those written books contradict with Quran. The criterion to judge the claim of any group or individual that claims to be on the right path is to see how close its beliefs and teachings are in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah.

It’s not the discussion, which is the problem, it’s how the other side handles it. And IF the other side is ready to face the truth. Certainly, when these fights erupt, one can easily determine that “the other side is not ready for the truth” but keeps on misleading the people with twisted verses and fabricated hadiths.

I am no fan of sects in Islam, and personally I do not like to be labeled as member of certain sect. Sects have no basis in Islam and it is not liked by Allah to divide the religion.

In fact the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had warned us about the appearance of such deviant groups, when he said in an authentic narration reported by Abu Amir al-Hawdani:

“Indeed those who were before you, from the people of the book (Jews and Christians) split into seventy (? –Seventy-two?) Sects, and this religion will split into seventy three; seventy two will go in to the hell fire, and one of them will go to paradise, and it is the Jama’ah.” * (Abu Dawud, vol 3, Hadith #4580, English Translation)*

The term Jamaah was explained by the companion Abdullaah ibn Masood (ra) as meaning that which agrees with the truth. He said in his famous statement, "The jamaaah is that which agrees with the truth, even if it is a single person." (Reported by ibn Asaakir in Tareekh Dimashq - Arabic)]

Then there is no doubt that each of these groups claims for itself that it is the saved group, and that it is correct and that it alone follows the Messenger (pbuh)). But the way of truth is a single way and it is the one, which leads to salvation. And any other way is one of the ways of misguidance which leads to destruction as has been clearly explained by the Prophet (pbuh) in another hadith, reported by the companion Abdullaah ibn Masood (ra), who said,

"Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) drew a line with his hand and said, “This is the straight path of Allah.” He then drew lines to its right and to its left and said, “These are the other paths, which represent misguidance and that at the head of each path sat a devil inviting people to it (path).” He then recited, “And verily, this is my straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path.” (Reported by Ahmad, an-Nasaa’ee and ad-Daarimee and collected in Miskhaat ul-Masaabih, Vol 1, Hadith #166, Arabic-English Translation)

So the path is to stick to the Book of Allah and to the Sunnah of His Messenger (pbuh), as occurs in the following hadith. The Prophet (pbuh) said:

“I have left you with two things, as long as you hold to them, you will never go astray, they are the Book of Allaah and My Sunnah.” (Collected by Imaam Maalik, , in his Muwatta, the Book of Decree. Hadith #3, Page 434, English Translation)
So again the criterion to judge the claim of any group or individual that claims to be on the right path is to see how close its beliefs and teachings are in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah.

A serious effort should be made to enlighten those of the group’s followers who may be genuinely seeking the light of pure Islam, but as a result of the group’s brainwashing have fallen into its clutches. It is compulsory on the scholars and Muslims in general to make efforts to inform the public through all means available about certain group’s deviant nature. Many Muslims have passively sat by for a long time, believing that the group would soon fizzle out and disappear. Instead, its cancerous growth has continued unabated and unchecked. As for those who in spite of what they have read, continue to have misgivings about exposing the group due to their desire to maintain an image of unity with respect to Islam, then let them reflect on the following incident:

"When some people mentioned to Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal that they felt uneasy about criticizing people (who had deviated in their beliefs), he replied – “If I were to remain silent, how then would the masses know truth from falsehood?” (Reported by Imaam Ibn Taymeeyah in Majmoo`ah ar-Rasaa’il wa al-Masaa’il, vol 4, Page 10, Arabic).

According to the unanimous agreement of Muslim scholars, those who introduce deviant writings and religious rites, contrary to the Quran and Sunnah have to be exposed and the Muslim nation warned against them. In fact, when Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was asked if one who fasted, prayed and secluded himself in the Masjid was dearer to him than one who spoke out against people involved in deviations. He replied, when one fasts, prays and secludes oneself, he does so for himself alone; but if he speaks out against deviations, he does so for Muslims in general, which is nobler.

With all said and done, I believe there should be a dialog between Shia and Sunni, etc. If you do not like searching for the truth and do not like when someone posts something from your own sources, then maybe flirting with facts is not your thing. If you can’t take truth, and end up insulting others, and desperately try to make your point with fictitious hadiths, and twisted translation of verses, then religion is definitely not-your field of intellect. I suggest that you waste your time in ‘General and Gupshup Café forums’ make some friends and enjoy life.

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After reading this, if you believe it is your duty and responsibility to Allah, to warn your brothers and sisters, then please do not be a silent spectator, spread the truth to the best of your ability. Perhaps you may save a soul or two from the deviant clutches of the group.

Finally, I ask Allah to give all of us the power and courage to recognize the truth, to understand it, to implement it and to call to it. Ameen.

I sincerely apologize, if I have offended anyone, if I did it was unintentional. Sorry about the long post as well . . .

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Take it easy.

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PS: I await for an answer to the question, I raised above.


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----

i know what you mean, but i'm sure when you posted that verse, you knew that the shia crowd is going to pounce or say something that you're not going to like.

i'm not against a conversation or an exchange of ideas, but looking back at the history of this forum, thats almost never the case.

In the end, i guess its much more than just incitement. you see something that totally goes against your beliefs or something thats slanderous to what you hold in respect, and i guess, a counter point needs to be made, so just ignore my rambling..

[quote]
Originally posted by nomaan:
*a counter point needs to be made, *
[/quote]

You haven't been rambling.

A counter point always will need to be made. This is a discussion forum where people will invariably debate views.

It's not the counter point itself, but the presentation manner that counts. Debates turn into mud-slinging matches and all reason is forgotten.

What people fail to realize in their emotional outbursts is that the first person to resort to underhanded methods gets discounted....regardless of the validity of his/her argument. I'm not saying that this is the right way to approach it, but it is generally the way people react.

Nomaan, if quranic verses offends anyone, what can I do? Its not my fault. Its the truth that offends them, so its better to believe it or bite ones nails when they see some thing truth being told by Allah about them.

If they did not like one verse from Quran, how do you think they feel many other verses from the quran which expose their hypocrisy?


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*


----*High Priest-OF-Painful Truth*----