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This should serve as an example to those countries where converting from one’s religion is punishable by death. India will continue to be a beacon of hope for other nations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------India is a secular and tolerant country. I cannot think any Arab or Islamic nation matching up to Indian Ideas and values.
By the by, I also think these Arab countries are Racist, as they discriminate other religions, and followers of other religions are looked down as "KUFRS". I think this is one of the biggest racist problem in the world, which is not being discussed at all.
the Lions of Sarnath. Sarnath is where Asiddhartha Gautama first preached, and these lions echo his teachings to the four quarters of rthe world. The wheel symbolizes Buddhist law and also Asoka's legitamacy as an enlightened ruler. lion symbol is used
as goverment seal and wheel is used in indian flag. ashokas empire covered present day afghanistan pakistan and north india.
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited November 06, 2001).]
People leaving Hinduism are very very less. <<<<
funny. thousands converted only yesterday. but thats very very less. do u have the same definition of less as everyone else here?
I have met hundreds of converts to christianity, who get $1000 as christmas gift per annum on converting to christianity. Some educated guys have converted to other religion only for the sake of politics. <<<
so u telling us hindus are willing to leave hinduism for $100. now thats hilarious and speaks volume of hindu loyality.
Conversion to islam is for one of the most funniest reasons. In many cases it is Polygamy. If you are a Muslim you can have many wives, whereas if you are a Hindu you need to divorce your wife and pay her a alimony. <<<<
im surprised. there are 50 million devdasies in one state of karnatka alone. prostitution among ur clan is like a walk in the park for others. heck its considered religious for brahmans to abuse millions of devdasies. if anything the perverted ppl u mentioned oughta be trying to become brahman so they can also enjoy the millions of devdasies around india. now thats not happening is it?
perverted ppl looking for sex can just go to red light districts of india where lower caste hindu women are sold for less than a dollar a night. they dont need a marriage to satisfy their sexual needs. marriage requires a lot of responsibility.
mundaya population of karnatka itself may
be around 50 million . how can be it be true
all of them are prositutes.half of the population is male.
more information about karnataka
http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=0AC02000
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited November 06, 2001).]
Anyone has any numbers as to how many of the Hindus in India are of the lower caste?
I have heard that many untouchables are given 'quota' privileges for the past discriminations. Can someone please elaborate on that?
And all those who are bashing Hinduism & vice versa should be careful with their tongues. As none of their religions teach such ignorance.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Meagre Conversions ?? 
! Dalits.org and many other sites tell us OTHERWISE !!. Millions of Dalits face CRUELTY and racist intimidation on a daily basis. There are cases where lower castes CANNOT enter a particular Temple, if they do they are beaten and the Temple has to be WASHED. There are cases where dalits Are not allowed to DRINK from a Public Fountain where higher castes drink, if they do they are BEATEN UP etc etc etc. Even our friend rvikz will agree that CASTE based racism still affects many people of India, so many are left with no alternative BUT to take up another Religion. May be some dont understand Bhuddism but thats not the point, What these conversions show are that MANY lower castes are FED UP with HINDUISM.
http://www.dawn.com/2000/02/18/int7.htm
Affirmative action in India multiplying out of control
By Ramesh Thakur
PATNA: India is the biggest laboratory in human history for affirmative action policies mandated by the constitution. Now the central government plans to set aside one-third of seats in the federal and state legislatures for women. The only serious opposition to the plan has come from groups that want caste quotas included within the quota for women.
On economic policy, India has been moving toward the international mainstream. On nuclear policy, it bucked international trends. In preferential politics, it offers salutary lessons to the rest of the world.
The motives underlying preferential policies are beyond reproach. But by institutionalizing affirmative action in favour of any one group, the government effectively discriminates against others, alienates them, feeds their sense of grievance and can contribute to a growing militancy - without necessarily helping the most needy.
Every affirmative action produces an equal and opposite sectarian reaction. If a government frames public policy in a group-conscious way, it cannot expect groups suffering relative deprivation to ignore group identity. For any one post filled on a quota, only one alternative person would have succeeded in a merit system, but hundreds can feel aggrieved for having lost out due to preferential policies.
Affirmative action programmes are always described as temporary expedients, yet they often persist and proliferate. In India they were meant to have ended after 15 years in 1965, but they haven’t. As group-based programmes permeate the public institutions of a country, they end up institutionalizing the very divisions that they are meant to eradicate.
Policies of positive discrimination in India have trebled in scope, embracing additional measures for the same target group, extending favoured treatment to other sectors of society, and incorporating additional target groups into the programmes, legislative quotas for women being but the latest example.
Some state governments incorporate Muslims within job reservation schemes. Christian churches demand set-asides for converts to Christianity. Late last year, the central government decided to add another 126 castes and subcastes to the category known as “Other Backward Castes” eligible for 27 per cent of jobs in the federal public sector. This is in addition to the 22.5 per cent reserved for “Backward” castes and tribes. The government has also extended quotas to promotions.
After decades of constitutionally sanctioned efforts to protect and promote sectarian preferences, India is caught in an escalating cycle of increasing numbers of groups putting forth expanding claims to entitlements.
If membership in a particular group confers unequal privileges, and if job markets and prospects for upward mobility are stagnant or shrinking, then fraudulent claims of membership in the target groups will multiply. The spiralling cycle of preferential entitlements, and the need to ensure against fraudulent claims, leads to an expanding role for government at a time when India needs to reduce government intrusion into the economy and society.
Within “disadvantaged” groups receiving preferential treatment, benefits are captured by the better educated, more articulate and more politically skilled elite. With respect to the planned quota for women in Parliament, for example, many fear that the scheme will be hijacked by the “bibi, beti and bahu” brigade, meaning the wives, daughters and daughters-in-law of the elite.
Preferential policies are a political response to symbols of sectarian identity. They create and nurture vested interests. The programmes are meant to reduce and eliminate intergroup disparities, but group leaders are dependent for their leadership positions on the perpetuation of perceived disparities.
A solution of ethnic or gender problems would deprive the leaders of a platform and a role. Upping the ante by raising ever expanding demands enlarges the role of group activists and gives them a bigger stage from which to manipulate more people.
Caste is now being used in India as a system for distributing political spoils. It is organized for capturing political power and the social and material benefits that flow from it, whether a government job, preferential entry into an educational institution, or a government licence. Where caste has led, will gender follow?
The most insidious consequence of affirmative action is the fact that it is so often counterproductive. Preferential policies foster the values of solidarity based on the cult of victimhood - instead of thrift, hard work, self-improvement and property ownership. They rest on the assumption of superiority in the nontarget groups, and reinforce the sense of inferiority in target groups.
State intervention can be as distorting in the cultural sphere as in the economy. Because such intervention promotes an artificial market, it seems destined to be as futile an effort as state economic planning.
In both cases, the proper role of the state is to provide the political, legal and administrative framework in which individuals and groups can compete freely on a level playing field. Laws and policies should be neutral between religious, caste and gender as well as economic competitors.
Not all preferential policies have to be abandoned. But when public policy shifts from equal opportunity to equality of outcome, individual and national interests are subordinated to the claims of special interest groups. Formulation and application of policies of positive discrimination require a sensitivity to potential pitfalls as well as to past injustices.-Dawn/The International Herald Tribune News Service.
Quotas in India Have Yet to Create Harmony
By Alexander Volokh
Los Angeles Daily Journal, November 5, 1996
According to proponents of Proposition 209, race-based affirmative action has fostered division and racial animosity. Proposition 209 opponents counter that affirmative action is necessary for historically disadvantaged minorities to succeed.
Both sides might benefit from looking at India, a country with the most extensive quota system in the world and where government routinely enforces preferences and hands out benefits based on accidents of birth. Unlike U.S. preference systems, the Indian system is based on one's caste, or one's place in the Hindu social hierarchy. Like race, caste is something one is born into, and caste in India is as sore -- if not sorer -- a subject as race is in the United States.
Everyone is classified in India. Those on top are descriptively called "forward castes," while those on the bottom are called "backward castes." More than half of government jobs and educational slots, and many seats in most state legislatures, are reserved for members of about 2,000 castes.
Caste-based preferences in India were established 50 years ago, when India gained its independence from Britain. Then, it was believed that caste-based discrimination was so pervasive that only a concerted, affirmative government effort could erase caste bonds. Today, caste-based affirmative action, by creating a system where certain castes had guaranteed privileges, has, if anything, succeeded in making people more aware of what caste they belong to. Victim status is a bonus in Indian politics.
In the 1980s, when the government tried to extend quotas to three-fourths of the Indian population, the forward castes, who would have been the net losers, responded with a series of public suicides by self-immolation. About two years ago, members of backward castes in the state of Maharashtra rioted over a misprint in a list of quota-eligible tribes; 113 people were killed in the worst incident of caste bloodshed in memory.
"Backward Caste employees must be promoted after five years with no regard for merit or seniority," a Brahman supervisor for Air India told U.S. News & World Report. "What incentive do they then have to do a good job?"
It all sounds eerily reminiscent of the affirmative action debate in the United States, although India has gone further down the road than we have. As opponents of Proposition 209 point out, racial and ethnic minorities have been oppressed in America. Indeed, so they have. But racial, ethnic and caste-based minorities have also been oppressed in India for thousands of years. And the evidence that government-sponsored affirmative action has succeeded in producing harmony between social groups in India is distressingly slight. Taking a look at the ethnic, religious, and caste-based violence in India, one cannot help but wonder whether quotas have exacerbated the problem.
ok, very interesting to read about these affirmative actions. Now, can someone tell us what 'effect' these affirmative actions have in the practical?
There are many such affirmative actions in Pakistan for trible & remote areas. Based on origin from that part of Pakistan & some gender based (not ethnicity or religion) but mostly they are misused. Is same the case in India?
One more question. If these caste based affirmative actions are taken for Hindus, what about other religions?
Are there any special privilages given to the Bahai or Zorastrians?
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
*ok, very interesting to read about these affirmative actions. Now, can someone tell us what 'effect' these affirmative actions have in the practical?
*
[/quote]
Point is ahmad bhai, is that if these initiatives were afective DO you think such scenes like the MASS ceremony to convert several thousand hindus would take place ??? The truth of the MATTER is that the so called LEGISLATIONS are inaffective and are widely DISREGARDED by the authorities (or shall I say turned a blind eye to ).
Anyone has any numbers as to how many of the Hindus in India are of the lower caste?
I have heard that many untouchables are given 'quota' privileges for the past discriminations. Can someone please elaborate on that?
==========================================================================================
According to the government estimates, nearly 155 million Scheduled castes and 75 million Scheduled tribes are notified.
The Constitution provided a 22.5% reservation in all the government jobs (15% to SC and 7.5% to ST). This reservation is valid for promotions also.
In 1990, V.P singh Government passed the Mandal Legislation, under which OBC (Other BAckward Castes) are give 27% reservation. So, today in India 49.5% of the seats are reserved. But, in States like Karnataka, Tamilnadu and Andhra Pradesh, they had 69% - 73% reservation.
With the supreme court order restricting the reservation limit to 50%, these states have relented.
As many people think that Brahmins are devils and Evil. But, the fact is opposite. You will find Brahmins are in the forefront of all the struggle in the country. Many of them are selfless and do a large chunk of community work. The Devadasi's are exploited by the other lower castes, and I have not seen any Brahmin exploiting a Devadasi,(Especially in Karnataka, As I am a native of that State).
In my opinion, after Jains, Brahmins are the softest people I have ever met.
Quote:
One more question. If these caste based affirmative actions are taken for Hindus, what about other religions?
Are there any special privilages given to the Bahai or Zorastrians?
That is a very big question and it is creating quite a controversy in the intellectual and political circles in India.
Government gave reservations to weaker sections of the society only to uplift them socially & economically. The identification of the beneficiaries were made on the basis of the caste which are notified.
Now, people who convert claim that they are out of the caste barriers, but still they want to claim the benefits of caste.
People opposing reservations for converts to other religion claim that reservation is based on the concept of doing justice for Hindus who had to suffer discrimination by Upper caste people. Once they leave the caste, they are no longer in the Caste barrier so they do not need any reservations.
But still the Government of India has extended the reservations to all converts, to Christianity, Buddhism and ISlam. I should appreciate the government for being so Secular. For all of you guys, The concept of reservation was started by Ambedkar, but it is to the credit of Brahmins who did modify the legislation to extend the reservation to converts too.
Regarding Mis-use, that's the main reason why the fruits of democracy havent reached the masses. Any dalit who gets to the top keeps on enjoying the benefits again and again for generations, whereas, you will find the poor are not even aware that government has provided them with so many benefits.
Today 50% of the government employees are from scheduled castes and Scheduled tribes. I think it is a great effort by the government.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
And Cows can fly in Karnataka !! See below the truth about BRAHMANISM.
DEVADASI (RELGIOUS PROSTITUTION)
The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-1 1 -87) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class (pseudo-secular word for Rajputs') and the priests (pseudo-secular word for Brahmins’). The latter, with their ideological and religious hold over the peasants and craftsmen, devised a means that gave prostitution their religious sanction. Poor, low-caste girls, initally sold at private auctions, were later dedicated to the temples. They were then initiated into prostitution.
Thus Devadasism is a system of legalised rape, enforced prostitution and sexual expoitation of Black Sudra women by Brahmin men. Moreover, by raping Sudra women the Brahmins could breed a new mixed race of middle castes which would serve to divide the Sudras ! Source: http://www.dalitstan.org/books/awake/awake4.html
Victory, There are Many cases in Karnataka about upper caste (Brahmin) crimes against dalits and how the system sometimes turns a blind eye to them.
[This message has been edited by Dil he Pakistani (edited November 07, 2001).]
Quote: DHP
Victory, There are Many cases in Karnataka about upper caste (Brahmin) crimes against dalits and how the system sometimes turns a blind eye to them.
The system started thousand years ago, but I have spent more than 22 years in North Karnataka. You are quoting a hate web site for supporting your claims. I have seen how these devadasis are initiated.
Devadasis are specifically assigned to deities like Maremma, Pochamma, Durgamma, Huligamma who are the Gods for the lower daliths and tribals. They have their own priest who is not a Brahmin. They are called as Potharaju who hails from the dalith class itself. In many cases, where a family is having trouble, they make a wish with the deity that if their troubles are solved then they would convert their eldest daughter as Devadasi or their eldest son as Potharaju.
I was involved in educating the masses in the northern districts of Gadag, Bellary, Raichur and I had visited villages of Moka, Sreedharagadda, etc. Infact, many places the dalit leaders were against "Vichara Vahini", which they thought will weaken their hold on the Dalits.
What you read from web sites tells you the topic, when you really visit the site and work with the people, do you understand the ground reality.
Have a nice time with your dalitstan.
.
thats strange.
maybe you know MORE about Hinduism than victory does !
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
Going back to the original Topic, Has anyone found any OFFICIAL STATS about how many are leaving HINDUISM.
Seems like it is your turn at the moment.
[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
** They must have but I am afraid they couldn't make the decision which they wanted due to the fear of extremist Hindus.**
[/quote]
This is why people in Afghanistan and Pakistan are afraid to convert back to their religion Buddisim. They are afraid the couldn't make decision due to the fear of extremist Muslims.
Afghans wants to go back to civilised ways as they see that Buddha is punishing the destroyers of his status.