They had a better justice system back then

Early modern England (Tudor and Stuart eras): where criminal justice had a very clear function: to restore balance and harmony to society and reaffirm boundaries such as that of rank and age. The criminal justice system was used as a last resort and was intended to be discretionary and retributive, not punitive and vengeful as it is now. It wasn’t justice solely for the sake of wielding the all powerful hammer of justice as again it is now.

The vast majority of offences (60 to 75%) tried were property crimes, many of them arising, waxing and waning, from economic necessity. Sex crimes accounted for 2% and witchcraft was never the genocide against against women we are led to believe, even at the height of the witchcraft craze. In England it accounted for LESS THAN 0.1%. Witches were persecuted depending on the manner in which they used witchcraft; those who used it to steal a pocket watch were persecuted in the same way as anyone who stole a pocketwatch. Notice nearly all bodies of work on this area are writ by women with chips on their shoulder, looking back with a decidedly non-relativistic lens, foaming at the bit to gather all blame on the collective backs of men. But I digress.

The procedure for when punishment assumed the form of a death penalty:

  1. Grand Jury indicted
  2. Accused asked to plead guilty or not guilty
  3. Verdict given
  4. Alloculus (accused would allocute why he shouldn’t get the maximum penalty). Only 15% of men and 12% of women were found guilty and even then they could mitigate in their alloculus). At this point, men could plead the benefit of the clergy. All men children of God, in the image of God, thus all men nominally part of the clergy. They could sing a song recited from the Bible to save themselves from death (“the neck verse”). The ability to recite the song (you were trained while held in a cell awaiting trial) meant you were literate and you were saved from death. If you forgot the words, the judge actually helped you along. Recidivism was low, because they branded you to show that you had pleaded the benefit of the clergy and could not more than once.

Women were given the option of pleading the belly (saying they were pregnant). Very convenient was that men and women were housed in the same cells to await trial (which lasted 20 minutes, sans devious lawyers) so a pregnancy could be easily arranged. One woman pleaded the belly for two years. To judge your state of impregnation, matrons supposedly experts in the matter merely cast their eye upon thou and pronounced you thus.

The point is, no one wanted to kill. The full brunt of “justice” was never thrust against the individual allowing him no means to save himself. Yet society did not descend into chaos, despite no police, no organized criminal justice system.

Far more common were shaming rituals, such as being placed in the stocks for an afternoon. To keep you company, a fellow deviant could be placed with you so you wouldn’t feel so very, very alone when people laughed and jeered and learned their lesson that committing a crime wasn’t such a svelte idea. Imprisonment was rare and virtually unheard of because what was the point, that society would never understand. The point was to restore HARMONY to the community, and putting away someone to rot away for years would not restore balance, people would never learn their lesson, the criminal would be honed and perfected for further criminal activities. Nowadays, going to jail isn’t so bad, if you’re short of money to pay for your education, grand larceny would be a good avenue to pursue your education and gain a degree free of charge. Plus, satellite television, which most people don’t have. Ahh, the cushy rewards of crime.

That society was better than ours. Off with hands, ears, the tips of penises (for chagrined women).

By the way, the origins of Boxing Day arise in this era as well. The gentry / nobility in your area would box left over food and put it on the doorstep and the villagers would come to get it.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

They stank, in more ways than one. Says it all really.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

I love it when kids do their homework on Gupshup. :k:

Re: They had a better justice system back then

I WISH this was my homework. I find it so interesting.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Sarah, I'm taking a Survey English literature class this semester. Wanna help me? :D

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Sarah - research more, especially about the class inequities, it was NEVER a fair and just system, also PLEASE actually get some facts

EDIT: you know it just occured to me that I am telling this to a person who is more than likely South Asian and who should know about the inequities of the English justice system, lol, never mind, if you can't keep your own history straight, I can't expect you to get anyone else's on the first try.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Dear Minah,

There was no "class", there was only order and rank. If you can't get the terminology right, I don't expect much in the way of facts from you in that arena. And actually, it was very fair, fairer than it is now. Just because fair West SUPPOSEDLY has social mobility now does not mean all of history desired it. Just because time has elapsed, does not mean we have "evolved". The people in that era were much better off. If you can tell me how they were oppressed and depressed, I would love to refute. I am talking about only early modern England here.

EDIT: And by the way, what do you think about: "the justice system then was intended to be discretionary and retributive, not punitive and vengeful as it is now."

Re: They had a better justice system back then

nevermind.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Sarah, please, give me a break, just look it up, I never said anything whatsoever about justice in the west you opened that door, I simply said and now stress getting your facts right

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Another reason YOU need to get your facts straight. You must not have taken many classes in the area or read this in journals, the consistent message that this society was better than what we give it credit for, that there were a lot of methods to keep over exuberant displays of power in check, that these people did not not desire social mobility, that they were not overworked, overstressed, that they led easier lives than we did, enjoyed sex, enjoyed astrology. So it's not me who needs to get my facts straight, because I have a ton of evidence to back it up. If you compare it to the society today, those in power are not responsible for the lower classes. This is the society where we make laws against "aggressive panhandlers", so-called egalitarian laws against those who are driven to sleep under bridges, where corporations pollute our rivers and our environment and there are NO laws to stop them.

You pretend you know so much but you don't. And you stick by your views like a leach who is unwilling to consider anything else. I don't care about the West, I brought it up because you brought up class (again showing your ignorance that you know naught about that era, because there were no classes back then) and I merely said social mobility is what we demand today, but people were very happy back then.

Merely that. I personally don't care about what you think, because before I attended classes on this and read some articles, I believed as you did, that these people were oppressed and ignorant. How wrong I was. How very ignorant. Merely that.

aho

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Simple question..if this system was so great why is it not functioning anywhere?

Re: They had a better justice system back then

So many changes at the end of the early modern period at play: increasing literacy, the introduction of the printing press in England on a mass scale, mechanism, Protestant Reformation, less discretion for judges... None of them bad on their own but the amalgamation brought about changes. Of course in some respects we have gotten better, but we have lost many things in the process.

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They should have kept the 175 something holidays where corporeal labor was illegal, in my humble opinion.

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right so..it was a good system for those people at that time but really couldn’t manifest itself into universal human virtues. Don’t worry there have been many such “systems” like that in the history of humanity…what works then doesn’t work now. the matriarchal societies of southern india were some of the most egalitarian and equitable societies int eh world. but they didn’t last either…siht happens..I am just glad you are studying. Kids should study. :k:

Re: They had a better justice system back then

What do you mean, couldn't manifest into universal human virtues?

Society and law are in constant flux. At one point, a vast number of people in Canadian cabinet came fom old money, old family businesses, prime perpetrators of environmental pollution on a heinous scale. Because that still might be true, it doesn't mean it's "right", that we are "evolved", that it is "human virtue" to the benefit of humanity.

I don't care about reigning in our horses and turning back time to Tudor era, I just think we should doff our hats once in a while at something that was managed better than us. For example, 1 in 10 households in London having held civic office.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

^ Now that you are studying..I think you should read History of Kknowledge by Charles Van Doren (You might recognize his name from the movie Quiz Show..yup, the Columbia University professor)..HUman knowledge is a collective phenoenon..human beings have this uncanny ability to retain and adopt adn adapt to changing intellectual and physical environs retaining the best practices wherever they are found. A system that cannot become a best practice is a failure of sorts. We learned throughout history to improve and evolve..it is in our genes. It is always for the better.

HUman lives are much better now than they ever were before..it is because of our adoption of best practices (i.e. tried and true systems that can evolve)

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Sarah - thank you so much for the rant, entertaining as it was. AGAIN - I never pointed out the west but AGAIN you did. The west has NOTHING to do with what I wrote. I said go back and read some more and get facts. But it’s nice to know how I think, I forget sometimes :rolleyes:

Now, rest your fingers and go back and read and stop spouting off at me, I’m too tired to get into this. Good girl, scoot now.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Tudor justice was definately superior to what is today, because it was a criminal offence was women to gossip or talk too freely. I wish these laws were still around today, Pakistani aunties need punishment this way…

http://gouk.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springfield.k12.il.us%2Fschools%2Fspringfield%2Feliz%2FBloodypainful.html

The brank was a punishment enacted on women who gossiped or spoke too freely. It was a large iron framework placed on the head of the offender, forming a type of cage. There was a metal strip on the brank that fit into the mouth and was either sharpened to a point or covered with spikes so that any movement of the tongue was certain to cause severe injuries to the mouth. The woman was then led by a city official through the streets of town by a chain, then usually tied to a whipping post or pillory to stand in view of the cruel and verbally abusive public.

Another good act of the Tudors was too make it criminal for women to talk too brashly, brazenly, or freely. From the same link, the punishment was

One more odd punishment worth mentioning was the ducking stool. Like the brank, it was a punishment for women whose speech was considered too brash and brazen or too free. The ducking stool was a wooden chair attached to a large lever system. The lever allowed the chair to be raised or lowered without the tipping of the chair, making it parallel to the ground at all times. The chair was then lowered into the water, dunking the loose tongued woman under the water. Based on the level of the offense and the cruelty of the deciding party the woman could be “ducked” any number of times, and in some cases of extreme measures, the woman could drown from the time spent under water. Some of the ducking stools were mobile and could be taken to the water’s edge at the necessary time, while others were fixed into place along the coast of the water as a grim reminder to the women of the town of what free speaking could lead to.

Yup, I fully agree that Tudor justice was better. They knew how to keep women in their rightful place back then… by law.

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Mad scientist, scolding of husbands was a very petty crime and dealt at the lowest levels of judicial administration. Similarly, husbands were brought to task when they abused their family members, including wives. It was Church doctrine that women were inferior, to be reigned at the yoke by their male lord but that didn't translate to reality. Men married women they loved at the lowest levels of the rank orders, and even at the hightest, countless letters from men to their wives have survived showing their love for their wives and how they valued their opinion. See Alison Wall's Power and Protest in England. They weren't slaves, many many many people, despite Church dogma, thought as much of their wives as men do now.

For Minah, more proof, since you are a feminist:

"The clitoris was assigned a vital role in conception, and also creidted with less legitimate uses: 'commonly it is but a smll sprout, lying close hid under the Wings, and not easily felt, yet sometimes it grows so long that it hangs forth at the slit like a Yard [penis], and will swell and stand stuff if it be provoked, and some lewd women have attempted to use it as men do theirs... but I have never heard but of one in this Country" - Mrs Jane Sharp, The Midwives Book, written in 1540. Some pretty graphic stuff, yet women wrote it, published it.

In Canada, customs is wary about letting in lesbian graphic literature. I think Sharp talked about it way back then. So they were quite advanced and open.

More:

"In mentioning such matters as masturbation and lesbianism authors in this period [Tudor and Stuart England] adopt a much more neutral tone than do Victorian authors, who tend to either censor such topics or treat them in a heated and hysterical manner. I take this as evidence that Stuart opinion was less censorious and guilt-ridden about such things... It was also strongly believed that women whose sexual needs were not satisfied were in danger of illness" - p 34, from Obstetrics and Gynaecology in Tudor and Stuart England, written by Audrey Eccles

Re: They had a better justice system back then

Wasn't Tudor the time Prima Nocta was imposed on the Scottish?

Terrible wrongs happened that time...