Assalam O Alaikum Wa rehmatullahe Wa barakatuhu
wa Salamu ala mani-taba al huda! (peace on those who seek guidance from the Creator)
I want to state that there is no such category in Islam which is called ORTHODOX muslims.
This is a christian term coming from the christian church and the sects that it is divided into. Same thing applies to the Jews.
And people today supposedly drop this term left and right when they want to be “liberal” or create the impression that "non-practicing is “un-orthodox” and practicing is “orthodox”
So in effect what we should say is “practicing muslims” and “non-practicing muslims” if we even need to categorize this way.
Other wise I believe we should just say Muslim and be done with it. Some are given more ability and circumstance from Allah SWT and some less. So we cannot be the judge…
where as we try to be the judge , jury and excecutioner all in one…
Whomever feels there is such a thing as “ORHTODOX” please bring forth evidence other than rant-o-rama type hype or character generalizations from Non-muslims.
Please bring forth evidence from the Shariah (be it quotes from the Ulema or modern day scholars of Islam or the Ai-ema Arba (4 imams - Abuhaneefa, Shaafi, Hanbal and Maalik) . Don’t quote any tom-dick & harry who is elects to speak on the subject without experience.
If you do so I will gladly accept that I am wrong and there is a bonafide term called “orthodox muslims” .
I try myself according to the people I find and the knowledge I can gather to practice Islam to the fullest , but am barred by my ability and circumstances. So I don’t want to be called Orthodox or un-orthodox.
Comments are welcomed and please don’t make this a "lets attack and butcher bi**ch-fest! "
I think the term gets mixed up and yes the use of the term is incorrect.
fundamentalist, extremist, orthodox etc etc, diff labels may mean diff things to diff ppl.
But if we look away from the labels and the type of people we find in our communities and try to group them based on their mind set, actions, approaches there would be several diff groups, and political views cut across all these diff groups but to diff extents.
I almost think of a multi dimensional view, including how religious a person is, how traditional a person is, what their political leanings are, how much a perosn mixes culture with religion etc etc etc
Assumptions that just because a person is practising muslim he is not open minded or not fun or is anti US or hatever are simply not true.
its composites and not broad singular categories that allow a better understanding of the mindset of diff type of ppl. but for the mouthpieces of certain groups as well as media its easier to bundle ppl into two main categories, which makes no sense at all
^^ all well …but you “very diplomatically” missed the objective. Bring the evidence to prove there is such a term as “orthodox muslim” as suggested by reputable sources or
accept that there is not such thing…
antumul, tell me one thing. can you give me basis from Quran an Hadith for calling Muslims shafi'i, maliki or hanafi? how about ahl al sunna wal jama'aa?
language serves the purpose of conveying meaning, and whether you like it or not different "practicing Muslims" practice their religions in different ways depending on their backgrounds. If the only term language had for "practicing" Muslims was practicing Muslims then you would never be able to criticize Sufies, Sufies would never be able to criticize Salafies, Salafies would never be able to cast takfeer on shias... you get the idea.
orthodox may be a church too, but it is also an adjective. Which is why unorthodox is a word (or is there an Unothodox Church?). Nobody is referring to the Greek Orthodox church when saying orthodox Muslims.
Saying there is no such thing as a liberal Muslim merely because it isnt in quran/hadith/4 imams (ironic that 4 imams and sects named after him arent in the first two) is like saying there is no such thing as a Malaysian Muslim because that qualifier didnt exist then either.
^^ yeah I agree for sure, and read my post “we should just say Muslim”
so I don’t agree that people should be called shafi’ or other…
but the term Orthodox when it pertains to a religion originated within the christian church. Just like Fundamentalist. If you go back to spain’s history of christiandom you will find where fundamentalist comes from.
Similarly orthodox.
So as you are stating of practice and I also argued the same, I am of the opinion that orthodox in islam is quite a foreign term which has been coined mostly in the current decade or at most since the last one in the western world. I believe it is becuase of parity among practicing muslims and the outisde non-believers using this term to categorize muslims.
Hence my arguement is that we should not reiterate what is basically a foreign term for us.
my point is that the foreign origin of a term does not mean that the term has no meaning (and if it has meaning it is a valid term). I agree that Orthodox and fundamentalist Muslim both are terms of western origin (after all we're talking in english) but that doesnt mean they dont have meaning in "zabaan e aam".
Your idea of just using the term practicing Muslim or Muslim for everyone is something I dont agree with. There is no harm in admitting to differences while sharing a common identity, a shafii and a barelvi and a maturidi are all practicing Muslims, and by no means the same. If we are to be able to talk about differences, we need descriptive terms that dont automatically divide people into Muslims and non Muslims.
On the other hand, I sort of agree with the spirit of your post. Orthodox and Fundamentalist are both tainted by their association with the intolerance and brutality that has been Fundamentalist/Orthodoxy Christianity (not sure if the Pope likes to be called orthodox tho). Therefore "Fundamentalist" Muslim has negative meaning, whereas there is nothing bad in wanting to return to the Fundamentals of Islam.
my point is that the foreign origin of a term does not mean that the term has no meaning (and if it has meaning it is a valid term). I agree that Orthodox and fundamentalist Muslim both are terms of western origin (after all we're talking in english) but that doesnt mean they dont have meaning in "zabaan e aam".
Your idea of just using the term practicing Muslim or Muslim for everyone is something I dont agree with. There is no harm in admitting to differences while sharing a common identity, a shafii and a barelvi and a maturidi are all practicing Muslims, and by no means the same. If we are to be able to talk about differences, we need descriptive terms that dont automatically divide people into Muslims and non Muslims.
On the other hand, I sort of agree with the spirit of your post. Orthodox and Fundamentalist are both tainted by their association with the intolerance and brutality that has been Fundamentalist/Orthodoxy Christianity (not sure if the Pope likes to be called orthodox tho). Therefore "Fundamentalist" Muslim has negative meaning, whereas there is nothing bad in wanting to return to the Fundamentals of Islam.
Exactly...on your last note may I add, it is actually our duty as muslims to return to the roots/fundamentals and apply islam as originally as we can, I mean by jurisprudence not literally, obviously if the rule is for twakul or reliance that you tie your camel first and then make tawakul then that means lock your car first then pray it doesn't get stolen...
So.......... thunbs down to orthodox....
I mean orthodontics (dental surgery) is a much better term lets all be dentists.. :)
another point though, a minor one maybe...the urdu translation of Orthodox (as you pinted out we are using english) is even worse as it is "Duq-ya-nusi"
which really means backward. And history shows it might pertain to the king named Duqyanus who ruled in the area where Ashab-ul-Kahf came from.
So the urdu meaning has bad connotations as well.
Thanks you for a respectable discussion ....so rare on this forum....
I mean yeah....
I mean if a person is within the realms of the correct aqeedah (no partners to Allah and Muhammad SAW the last messenger who was a human being period, then ......
It is upto Allah SWT to judge who is better.
Ahlul Sunnah and Ahlul Bayt
represent the
Orthodox and Un-Orthodox.
Democracy versus Dictatorship.
Accountability versus free reign
however,
an argumument can be made for both.
