there is more to the story...

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so the way Kiwis defeated england today is unbelievable…nasir hussain said this is one of the biggest defeats in terms of impact in any form of cricket…english players could not play swing at all and they were hit all over the ground. i mean not even an associate team would be embarrassed like this.

and it was not just one bad day in the office…they were also hammered by Aussies in the first match and were also defeated by pak comprehensively in the warm up match.

now get this…england has one of the best cricket infrastructure, organized county cricket, best grounds, academies, support staff…and look at the results. few days ago, when we lost to india, we made so much noise about our weakened cricket infrastructure, corruption and there was some merit to it but here is england with every possible resource in their pocket … but yet…

so looks like there is more to the story… what is it…i am curious to hear from expert guppies.

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Re: there is more to the story...

Do not compare pakistan's Performance to others. Look at the way we performed against india, and how disappointing it was. At the end of the day, bad performance is bad performance. We can not cover it up by comparing our team, to losing sides Times up for Old guns.

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Re: there is more to the story...

In England everyone is chosen on merit, we have so many sifarshis in our team. The whole structure of the board is battered due to corruption.

England have never been good in ODIs, we have far more potential but I don't know what is going on. I would not be surprised if WI beat us too

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Re: there is more to the story...

just for sake of debate Shak, how do you know that in egland teams are chosen 100% on merit whereas in pakistan they are not? except it is a popular phenomenon and will always remain popular... nasir hussain, michal holding, gower all said that this current england team does not make any sense....i am not sayin they are safarshis just just making a point

Pakistani board maybe corrupt (although let me assure you, sharyar khan, najam sethi, zaka ahraf, naseem ashraf, none of them were in involved in any corruption, so problem is somewhere else) but teams are selected by selection committees, coaches and skippers with mutual consultation not by the board.

Yes regionalism cancer is there but i respectfully ask you to enlighten me and name 3 top fast and spin bowlers in the country which were not selected for this tour? other than sadaf hussain, i dont know any special talent which has been ignored. Y

i would also like to know of any obvious top batting talent which has been blatantly ignored...yes few players here and there and yes Fawad alam shd have been there instead of younis khan but generally speaking all serious cricket lovers in pak agree that the bench is pretty much empty

and that was my question... it is very popular to say that this team is parachiee team..well in that case please let us know what are other top 5-6 players that we shd have selected...

and if the problem is with infrastructure (and that might be the case), then what happened to the english cricket who has one of the best resources and infrastructure ? just trying to have an academic debate that there has to be more to it

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Re: there is more to the story...

no one is trying to hide Pak performance....it is there for everyone to see. thx

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Re: there is more to the story...

When south Asian team does poorly, the commentators of all variety throw the kitchen sink at them. When Steve Davis is in the vicinity, he is known to have initiated the poor performance with a minimum of 4 bad decisions to boot.

When England flops, as happened yesterday, the commentators rain flowers on the winning team. And stop at not throwing petals at England

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Re: there is more to the story...

English infrastructure is a curse and blessing for team England. Their players are simply too over-coached. England lacks natural raw talent, simple as that.

No amount of coaching or infrastructure can turn below average or average players into great cricketers, this holds true for both England and Pakistan.

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Re: there is more to the story...

Let's not use team England's performance to discredit or downplay the need for good infrastructure and training facilities. We all know how English county cricket has immensely helped Pakistani cricketers to polish their skills. From past legends to contemporary cricketers, they all highly rate the English county cricket and stress its benefits, and have tirelessly campaigned to have similar facilities made available to them at home. So yes, good cricketing infrastructure is definitely one of Pakistan desperate needs.

9

Re: there is more to the story...

Lets not pray namaz-e-janazah for these teams yet. Both teams have the talent to stay relevant in the world cup. Sure England lost two games, but they lost to good teams. Australia & NZ are playing well and have home-field advantage. Same thing with Pakistan. Players are just inexperienced. Once they get over the nerves they will fare better. They will beat WI tonight and get their mojo back, iA

hahahaha.. over-coached...that was funny!

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Re: there is more to the story...

That is why I watch cricket on mute. TV commentators, unlike their radio counterparts, don't have anything meaningful to add.

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Re: there is more to the story...

It may sound funny, but it's actually true. We have far too many by the books cricket coaches in English country system and at club level that they just don't allow raw natural talent to flourish or players to develop their own set of skills. The English cricket system is so by the book that they would've destroyed players like Wasim and Waqar had they received all their coaching from there.

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Re: there is more to the story...

English cricket structure is over regulated and too rigid. They are too afraid to throw any raw talent into the deep end. Despite having a very professional county set up and world class facilities they do not have many world class players in their team at the moment. nothing to compare with Australia or South Africa. They need to relax a bit more and let the talent develop at its own pace instead of regulating it.

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Re: there is more to the story...

I was going to say exactly the same thing. Flair or improvisation is something you don't usu. hear cricket pundits or writers associate with English batsmen/style of batting. They are just too text bookish in their approach. Every player has to have played a certain number of county and domestic one-dayers before they can even be considered for national selection. KP was an exception but then he was born and raised in SA

Besides England have never been more than an average to decent ODI team. They have never been world-beaters in this format at any time. It is no surprise then that they have yet to win a World Cup (although they have reached the Final three times in 1979, 87 and 92)

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Re: there is more to the story…

Me thinks the Pak team lost the game in best interest of minorities in India :chai:

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Re: there is more to the story…

To add…

England seem to be having the same problems as us…batsmen averaging in low to mid 30s with SRs in mid-high 70s. A lot of stabilizers but not many explosive batsmen or batsmen who can improvise and accelerate when needed. Also English batsmen do not rotate the strike as well as some of the other teams, perhaps only marginally better than Pak when it comes to strike rotation which is not saying much..

**A SR of only 68 (Ballance) is just not good enough for a number 3 batsman in limited-overs format. **This is not test cricket.

Only Eoin Morgan could be described as an explosive batsmen. James Taylor and Joe Root are not bad but the rest are perhaps better suited to test cricket

Ian Bell (stabilizer) does the job of Misbah in the English team. You can afford to have one or two stabilizers or ‘glue’ players (they have a vital role to play as well) in the team but certainly not more than that. We are experiencing the same problems with YK. Like Misbah he is a stabilizer but he uses up way too many dot balls and then gets out cheaply putting more pressure on the batsmen to follow!! Misbah at least makes his stay count at the wicket by scoring runs consistently..

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[TH=“align: right”]NO[/TH]
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[TH=“class: padAst, align: right”]HS[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]Ave[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]BF[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]SR[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]100[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]50[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]0[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]4s[/TH]
[TH=“align: right”]6s[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
MM Ali
2014-2015
19
19
0
570
119
30.00
556
102.51
1
3
1
52
20
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
JM Anderson
2002-2015
190
78
43
273
28
7.80
559
48.83
0
0
9
23
0
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
GS Ballance
2013-2015
14
13
1
281
79
23.41
411
68.36
0
2
1
20
1
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
IR Bell
2004-2015
157
153
13
5198
141
37.12
6742
77.09
4
32
6
503
32
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
SCJ Broad
2006-2015
115
64
24
501
45*
12.52
672
74.55
0
0
8
34
8
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
JC Buttler
2012-2015
51
44
6
1152
121
30.31
1065
108.16
1
6
4
92
30
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
ST Finn
2011-2015
54
22
8
113
35
8.07
188
60.10
0
0
6
10
3
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
EJG Morgan
2006-2015
137
129
21
3865
124*
35.78
4541
85.11
7
22
10
319
86
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
JE Root
2013-2015
50
47
5
1651
113
39.30
2081
79.33
3
8
2
118
13
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
JWA Taylor
2011-2015
13
13
2
441
98*
40.09
576
76.56
0
5
2
34
5
[/TR]
[TR=“class: data1”]
CR Woakes
2011-2015
31
25
5
348
41
17.40
463
75.16
0
0
3
23
1
[/TR]

There you have it PD :slight_smile:

16

Re: there is more to the story…

One of either WI or Pak are going to face the same fate as England today…

Learning from Southie’s bowling and Mccullum’s batting.. simple rule: Jo dar dya wo mar gya :snooty:

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Re: there is more to the story…

so asif bhai, you just proved my point…ho ga over-regulated but a well disciplined, well staffed, one of the best cricketing structure is producing same type of players like Pakistan which has arguably no organized structure at all with minimal facilities and that flourish on raw talent… totally different systems but same output :frowning: yae kaya baat hoi asif jee…matlab hai baat itni simple nahieen hai

now i am not saying for one second that we dont need an improvement in our infrastructure … resources wise, we need more grounds, more academies, more coaches and we need all of this in small cities too as majority of cricketers are coming from the small towns in Pak for last 25 years … but at the same point I was pointing out to England where cricket has great infrastructure both organizationally and functionally but overall the standard is not improving significantly both for the test squad and ODI squad…so there has to be more to it

now lets get to some other points…this is exact same kiwi team that ross taylor was leading and it was a disaster not so long ago… so what has changed that it be came so deadly…it has recently beaten pak at Pak’s home ground in a test match so convincingly which even Aussies could not do…then it defeated pak in all ODIs…destroyed lankans…defeated indians…so what changed in this kiwi team asif bhai?

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Re: there is more to the story...

Grassroots facilities are surely not good by international standards but NCA in Lahore provides top class facilities to national cricketers

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Re: there is more to the story...

True. KP was not a product of English cricket system, that's why he came up with the switch hit. Yup, I remember how it became such a big news back in the day.

English team is currently being led by an Irish man who is quite a dynamic player with bit of natural flair from what I can remember. He added much needed energy, pace and life in England stale, mundane and mediocre batting line up when he first started. So not sure what's happening right now. But looks like Morgie needs to work his Irish charm and bring in some oh so lovely and rattling Irish rusticness for the painfully prim and proper Poms. I want to use some Irish slang words to get my point across, but that might be taken the wrong way, so I'll leave that for Eoin.