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WEll done on all that research
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firstly sarah u cant compare males with females… they are both different… both have different reponsibilties (dont get me wrong…) male’s body is built to work… it is suppose to take care of his wife…and his wife should enjoy that status… (there is nothing wrong with a women working too… but u forgot to mention the status women enjoys through eyes of islam)…
I totally agree with u on …the multiple wife thing… a male should not have been allowed to have multiple wives… i dont like the concept…
and as for the illegal sexual intercourse thing is concerned…plz do read the male punishment for raping some one… (bury the man in ground with only face showing …cover the face with white cloth … stone the man untill the cloth is completely red!!! painful) …
women have a special place in islam … a lot of ur points were made using THE EXAMPLES OF ENGLISH LANGUAGE…
QUOTE: "his " so woman is man’s property … an object
Quote: MANkind not HUMAN kind … so man i placed first…
all of these are examples of how language barriers can leed to misiterpretations… that i why we(muslims) were encouraged to learn arabic and get accustomed to the society… as quran would make a lot more sense…
I agree with “7 virgins in heaven”… this is not fair… still not sure why that is
but u have to keep it in mind
plz
that males are different from females… NOT BETTER … NOT WORSE… BUT DIFFERENT… FEMALES are more “calm” , " sensible" and " logical" (thats from islamic ideology cant give u the actual refernces right now) …
woman have a special place… they are to be respected and ‘worshipped’… their beauty is truly remarkable and so is their status in the socity (sadly .. there is not a single country that practices islam sensibley and properly)…
thanks again for making me think…
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** “I don’t like my body being an entity subject to the whims of all those horny males out there. I can do without covering myself up.
?” **
… isnt that a bit sexist?.. u have a responsiblity to cover ur body..ur assets.. as u have been given beauty … and that is only for ur husband … it is not a restriction… u cant expect to be considered as a male… total EQUALITY (dont get me wrong) is impossible ..u and i are of opposite sex… ur anatomy is different… my hormones and ur hormones are different… i get enticed by somthing differnent than u… we are different .
we can enjoy the same status… however, just like u have a responsibilty to keep ur beauty (hair, chest,legs, arms, belly… )covered i have a reponsibilty to respect u and act the same way… i.e. dress modestly… u have to keep this in mind too that males are more “hornier” than females.
again… Differences…** biological ** differnces…
** As for differences. There are no differences. Surat Nisa calls them differences but these so-called differences are only justfications to the abuse that women have faced from the beginning of time. **
a agree what u say about women being victimised and abused … it is all un just… dont know why god let it be this way… however islam didnt teach us to be abusive towards females…
holocost is probably the right word… but the killngs have any thing to do with teachings of islam?..
i agree that women were victimised in dark ages of europe (denounced as witches and burned).. and currently in dark ages of islam (where islam is used as a scapegoat for all the crimes… terrorism, abusive behavior towards women e.t.c…).
Its hard for u to live in the world which seems to hate women and use them like objects… and that is the sad reality … but not every one is alike… a change in this male dominated society is needed and we have a role to play in it… remember islam is ur faith and u need to find the true meaning of what has been said… and do continue there is nothing wrong in questioning ur own faith it just gives u a deeper understanding
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
… keep going
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited December 27, 2001).]
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no response to me huh sarah?..
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u r becoming like the side of the many… like the sheep… i saw a wolf in u … i felt somthing in u
***I think i need a hug
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/teary2.gif
** (the author in the previous message just wanted sarah’s attention…he still feels the same facination and respect cause of her splendor and brilliance . What u see previously was a poor attempt to get some attention as he is not getting any response from the person he thought was a
QUOTE: “special friend”
the author shall continue his persuit to understand sarah and her mentality cause he has never met a person so impressive and doesnt give up on people that easily… thank u ) **
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4:30 am??? wow… intelligent and hradworking
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…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
btw … have pleasent dreams…
trent no no…
god and goodness yes yes..
heavy metal no no…
peace and silence yes yes…
i will cry for u
i will steal for u
i will kill for u
i will get on ma knees and hands and beg ma love for u
i will take this knife and bleed my aching heart out for u
i will sell ma soul for somthing pure and true
some one like U.
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited December 27, 2001).]
Moved to the religion section.
,
Scince I am the only person here who thinks he/she has an answer for all this I’ll go on ahead.
SJ cracks his knuckles and begins to type
**I will be adding stuff from a lot of sources here showing why I think the world is misogynsyt. I’m going to start with Surat Nisa and plan on using Genesis and olden literature (English; can’t use the new because misogyny is no longer politically correct.)
Those of you who don’t have an open mind and who are not willing to tolerate views and interpretations contrary to the ones you have formulated or that have been bred into you, don’t post but if you want to, I’d appreciate keeping the discussion non-personal (in other words, don’t diss me or my parents because I can do the same.)**
Ok I agree I will keep my personal comments to myself and I shall not resort to mudslinging and its various forms.
**- O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)] - Surat Nisa, 1st ayat.
Note how it is MANkind, not HUMANkind. Also note how Adam is created first and Eve from him and how there is no explanation given as to the order of creation.**
Mankind and humankind BOTH have the words MAN in them. I wonder why you havent objected to this…It is highly pointless to as to WHICH was created first as it hardly matters. If you were born after me does that mean I am better than you?
**- And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four - Surat Nisa, 3rd ayat.
Allah is addressing males, not females. Do women have lesser faculties of thought? Women are made to be mere objects; the male marries them, they do not marry the male. The man can marry upto four time, the woman can marry only once. Women are chattel, probably on sale.**
I will not state my thoughts but I will give something for you to reflect upon.
For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)
In this verse Allah addresses men and woMEN(see how the word men is also in women?)
**- And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way - Surat Nisa, 15th ayat.
Again, the male is addressed and the women are called HIS women, such that one can logically infer that he owns them.
Sexual intercourse cannot occur without the partner. No reference is made to the male partner in the first ayat in the surat regarding promiscuity. Are women weaker, to be blamed for enticing weak little men?**
again the Quran has the answers(why do you look at some verses and neglect the rest?)
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
In this Allah has orderd us to RESPECT women and treat them with kindness. Plus men cannot inherit(i.e own women) without thier will(so if a man presses you to obey him. screw him. He doesnt own you. you yourself do) This clearly demonstrates thier rights!
let me also show you RIGHTS by:
They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187) this makes them equal on account for themselves!
about the male not being blamed(let me add that sura tul Nisa was sent down to TEACH men who to behave with women so allah directly adresses men. in other parts of quran you will always find 'oh those of you who belive!)
*“No bearer of burdens shall be made to bear the burden of another.” (35:18) *
This mean that everyone shall get what they deserve(including the blame for intercourse!)so the woman will bear the burden, so will the man!
**- But if you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a Cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) as Mahr, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin? - Surat Nisa, 20th ayat.
The word ‘replace’ is commonly used for objects. The woman is thus an object who can be pacified with gold. Like in the old days when the Church and the state could abuse the poor. The only difference is that the poor were not given any compensation; the women are, showing that women can be swayed by material goods.**
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It means you cannot replace a woman! You cannot bribe her nor take what you gave her as meher! The verse means that if you want to divorce your wife(or if she wants to divorce you) you cannot take what you gave her. The verse explains itself and it goes to prove how little of the quran you actually know!
And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allâh has full knowledge about your Faith, you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Auliyâ’ or masters) and give them their Mahr according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not adulterous, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women - Surat Nisa, 25th ayat.
Notice again how the Quran is written for men, women are part of MANkind by extension, even though they are the ones who give birth.
Men are given a list of women they can marry. There is no such list for women and the men they can marry. Of course, it is their ‘guardians,’ their ‘masters,’ that have the power to decide the fate of the woman.
**- Allâh wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman) - Surat Nisa, 28th ayat.
I fail to see how the ‘burden’ is lightened by making men ‘weaker.’ And if men are weaker, why is the Quran addressed to them and why are all the Prophets male?
I infer from the above that women are sexual commodities, subject to the whims of men and thus must be covered up for their own protection. It is also advisable for women to hide their ankles, lest men be tempted.**
It means, that men are weak and if tempted by evil woman(not ALL woman!)they will surly fall into it and do sin! Women are covered for thier own good(I wonder if 5 men come to rape you. can you beat the off? the answer is no. try as you might. men have more physical prowess then women!)
In islam there were many great women and we love them and thier deeds with all our heart!
eg. hazrat Mariam, Hazrat Fatima, Hazrat Asia, Hazrat Khadija. with the help of these great women the prophets were able to convey the message.
**-Men are the protectors and maintainers of women - Surat Nisa, 34th ayat
I agree with this holeheartedly, women cannot possibly protect and maintain themselves.**
You ar walking down a dark street and 2 men rush out at you trying to rape you. I doubt you would call a nun for help. You would call for help, and my soul be dammed you will call for a man!
**- Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband’s property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) - Surat Nisa, 34th ayat
I must ask dear father if I annoy him and seek repentance immediately.
Notice how the first line says women should be obedient to their husbands and Allah. Since husbands and Allah are mentioned right next to each other and Allah is our creator and know all, that shows that women are inferior.
This ayat also talks about women protecting their chastity and their husbands’ property. Do these women have no property to call it their own or is it either their fathers’ or their husbands’?
Woman is a sexual commodity, do not share your body with her if she has annoyed you, O virtuous male.
I wonder, are women allowed to beat their husbands like men are allowed to beat their wives?**
sigh You have only quoted Sura Al Nisa(which allah made for men so that they may treat women rightly. So allah will only talk to men in it ABOUT women)thus women are not directly spoken to in this sura!
Why do mother’s hit thier children? Isnt tthat an abuse of rights? “oh momy dont hit me I am a boy. Dont violate my rights” (they tables are turned now Sarah)
Just because Allah says for a woman to guard her hubby’s property it doesnt mean that she has none of her own. women can have thier own property and it is fully allowed in Islam.
Again look at what I wrote about meher above(it cleary states that what her husband giver her is her property)
**- And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands - Surat Nisa, 43rd ayat
I am led to wonder, are women impure when they have sex too? Or am I subhuman since I am not referred to directly by Allah?**
This time I beg you to read the whole quran and you will see that only this sura is addressed to men. In later sura’s you will see that women also Have to clean themselves after intercourse. It explains it self. And you are also addressed(just read quran plz and leave Al-Nisa behind. You will find all you answers)
**- But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun [purified mates or wives (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.)] - Surat Nisa, 57th ayat.
Tell me, am I, being a lowly female, given pure, clean male mates as well?
For those of you who will tell me to look at the good in Islam, I already have and I adore my religion for it. But above is the bad and since this is the true relgion and the word of Allah, then I don’t see why there should be both good AND bad in it. There should only be good, total and complete.**
Yes you sall have young youths to amuse you and play with you(but the way you are headed I doubt you will see janat)
I have cleared everything. and if you understand you will see that there is ONLY GOOD in islam and no place for bad. for if there was truly bad then I wouldnt be able to answer all this.
Thank you for reading(my hands hurt now),
SJ
I shall onnly fight on behalf of Islam so you can take the rest and shove 'em. My faith is enough for me
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Thanks,
SJ(finally a good argument. I was itching for someone to give me a challenging topic. But this, again seems esy. as I have Allah in my heart and the blessng of ahlul-bait(and the most important part of ahlul-bait is a woman hazrat Fatima)with me)
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… well done
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
**- And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands - Surat Nisa, 43rd ayat
I am led to wonder, are women impure when they have sex too? Or am I subhuman since I am not referred to directly by Allah?
**
[/quote]
LOL!
This just shows the depth of your knowledge about islam.
I recommend you pick up an english copy of Bahishhti Zewar. It is quite popular among women and also answers your question.
You are not trying to learn. You are trying to argue.
SJ has answered you more than this post deserves.
[quote]
This ayat also talks about women protecting their chastity and their husbands' property. Do these women have no property to call it their own or is it either their fathers' or their husbands'?
[/quote]
Comments like above! sheesh
[quote]
Originally posted by who---me:
** This just shows the depth of your knowledge about islam. I recommend you pick up an english copy of Bahishhti Zewar. It is quite popular among women and also answers your question.**
[/quote]
Why refer anybody to books?
Refer them to the real McCoy - the Nations of Islam - the Ummah which rules by this misgynistic Sharia'h.
How about we direct them to Saudi Arabia - The kingdom governed by Sharia'h!
How about we refer them to Iran - governed by the Sharia'h?
or, even closer - How about Pakistan where personal laws are Islamic or per Sharia'h?
You, who--me accuses Sara of
"You are not trying to learn. You are trying to argue.
Quite the contrary, it is you and Shah Jehan who are trying your damndest to shield 'a version of Islam' that has seen its day and should close shop and go home.
Sarah has very correctly stated the Quranic ayaths upon which are based even more oppressive & correctly - misogynistic Sharia'h laws that has been used to convert womens to:
"the levels of cats & dogs" hadith quoted by Bibi Ayesha.