now slavery is abolished and against the law and universally condemed.
what is definition of “slave” as it appears in koran?
whom would you classify as “slaves” now?
if taking “slave” is legal then why it is not “legal” now?
does the word"slaves" appear in bible? or in any other religious books
reflecting the social condition that prevailed 2000 years ago?
Re: the word "slave" in koran
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
now slavery is abolished and against the law and universally condemed.
what is definition of "slave" as it appears in koran?
whom would you classify as "slaves" now?
if taking "slave" is legal then why it is not "legal" now?
does the word"slaves" appear in bible? or in any other religious books
reflecting the social condition that prevailed 2000 years ago?
[/QUOTE]
Slaves in Islam are the spoils of war. In jihad one may Plunder the enemy's resources and this includes their women & children!
It is an enforceable injunction but as "Ask the Imam" says:
"Taking/keeping slaves is not in VOGUE these days".
We are just waiting for it to become fashionable /vogue so we can start taking slaves, specially the female concubines!
Saudi Arabia did not abolish Slavery until 1962.
every muslim if he truely follows the koran believes in slavery .
I was wondering whether it is legal in countrys like Iran or pakistan and why not I know that the age of consent was lowered from 18 to 9 in iran so why not bring back slavery with all the stoning people ect .
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jonny2mad: *
...why not I know that the age of consent was lowered from 18 to 9 in iran so why not bring back slavery with all the stoning people ect .
[/QUOTE]
unfortunately I have not studied the subject of slavery much, so I can't express my opinion, but........ when did this happen "lower age from 18 to 9" age to consent?
I was on a iranian oppersition site yesterday and they were saying about it during the shahs period it was 18 now 9.
funny enough I was on a hippy site a couple of months ago and this dodgy guy who was annoying the young girls on the site, was saying how great he thought iran was because of the change in the law he was in turkey .
Ive been on islamic question and answer sites and they say thats the age that it should be to.although I dont see why with theyre logic it isnt 6
Re: the word "slave" in koran
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
Does the word "slaves" appear in bible?
[/QUOTE]
Rvikz, yes the Bible does mention slaves. No prohibition of slavery is mentioned in the Bible but rather the proper way to treat slaves and slaves' roles towards their masters.
Since there was no concept of Bankruptcy in the Middle East in those days, one way out was to sell yourself as a slave and save your family from slavery. In some places there used to be conditions laid down that such slavery was not to be more than 7 years etc. even if the slave had not been able to pay off his debts within that time. After this period the slave was declared a free man. I think this inovation was first recorded under the laws of Hammurabi in the Middle East. Then there are many variations on this basic notion like indentured-labor, debtors prisons, etc. etc. That is why the freeing of all the slaves in conquored lands by the Persian Cyrus I in about 2500 BC and the statement of equal rights to all humans in his lands ( I think some statement to that fact is on some columns in the British Museum ) is so absolutely remarkable. Ofcourse then there is Asoka of India who did pretty much the same but at a much later date.
And that is another reason why Saudi Arabia eliminating slavery in 1962 and that under international pressure is a statement of the prevailing culture. Unfortunately, in Pakistan and in India there is still the practice of indentured labor which becomes tantamount to slavery.
That was interesting old lahori!
Do you any comments on these:
1)The warring parties in afghanistan used to regularly plunder the others' women. The Taleban under Amir ul Momineen edict of Jihad against the Northern Alliance - the Enemy of Islam (Taleban Islam) had the divine loophole to take the others' daughters & wives.
2)The militias working for the Govt of Sudan, until recently, used to replinish their low pay with "war plunder and taking of Slaves" - both christians & animists which they then sold to wealthy Northern Sudanese!
3)The black population (almost half or more of the population) of Mauritannia still are under the bondage of the berber arabs.
Hafeez123: I have read about the first two before, but I am totally ignorant of the last one. There was a very interesting debate about slavery during the civil war in USA. It is fascinating to read many of the opinions. For a flavor:
**Slavery was about as conscienceless a capitalistic endeavor as can be imagined. Its morality was debated at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. Assessing the international slave trade, Luther Martin of Maryland asserted, among other things, that slavery was dishonorable. John Rutledge of South Carolina lashed back coldly: “Religion and humanity have nothing to do with this question. Interest alone is the governing principle with nations. . . . If the Northern states consult their interest, they will not oppose the increase of slaves which will increase the commodities of which they will become the carriers.”
The profound Virginian, George Mason, himself a slave owner, delivered a stirring rebuttal to Rutledge topped by this thunderous conclusion: “Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. [Slaves] bring the judgment of heaven on a country. As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must in this. By an inevitable chain of causes and effects, providence punishes national sins, by national calamities.” Mason and Martin lost, and the calamities, begun when the first African was enslaved here, continued rumbling down the decades toward the Civil War.
Mason wasn’t the only delegate who understood the role of conscience in the life of the new nation. As the secret constitutional conclave was ending, a woman stopped Benjamin Franklin on the street. “What have you made for us in there?” she asked. “A republic, Madam, if you can keep it.” Franklin replied.
If you can keep it! Franklin was instructing us that in order to survive, the republic needed a polity with a democratic conscience.
of the people of that time. … **
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24450-2002Aug15.html
It is obvious that conscience is something that is very precious and very fragile. Claiming to be religious or irreligious for that matter is no guarantee that empathy for a fellow human will flicker in ones breast.
Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all
Bravo rvikz, you are doing well in creating an endless amount of threads that have been rehashed again and again. Needless to say you achieved your goals by starting them.
As you would be aware I generally ignore you , since I am aware of your nature. But when a bunch of deluded souls start talking nonsense based on ignorance you would get my attention.
Anyway for the benefit of the readers , since two threads have the same subject and arguments.
[quote]
what is definition of "slave" as it appears in koran?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: to understand this you need to understand what was the practice of the ancients and the best place to look would be the Vedas and hindu sacred texts ( the corrupted/adulterated remaining parts of the scrolls of Prophet Ibrahim (as)
Let me start by FIRST saying, I am talking about Hinduism so that we can establish how and why the term slaves had many definitions in ancient times. Failing which the term slaves and slavery as understood in our present time frame is flawed.
The ** Rig Veda ** reveals that the Aryans invaded India and defeated the original inhabitants and made them slaves. They bore the condemned label of ** Das, Dasyu and Shudras.**
Rig Ved 8/7/Balkhitya sukt 3 "You gave me 100 donkeys, 100 sheep that render wool, and ** 100 slaves" **
Thus the practice of giving and possessing other human beings by the rich or kings or by the noble was a common factor in the development of mankind in ancient times when money was not in common use and labour laws did not exist.
To understand how some people were classified as slaves and became the property of others we need to read the Manu smrti, which explains and classifies as to how these slaves are to be determined :
Manu Smriti 8:415 classifies them into seven categories:
(1) war captive, taken under a flag (of war),
(2) a self-volunteered slave, becoming a slave in order to eat food,
(3) born of a female slave, born in the house,
(4) a slave bought,
(5) slave given by parents,
(6) inherited through will and inherited from ancestors,
(7) penalized by the king or law or enslaved as a punishment
Ibrahim says: In addition to the above, Another form of slavery that has shadowed the Hindu society through many ages is that of the ** Devdasis ** or the 'temple girls' who were forced into prostitution in the guise of religion.
Ibrahim says: ** thus the term “slaves” as appearing in scriptures not only included prisoners of war as well as criminals and law breakers that have been jailed under the care of other people but also free men who have bonded themselves in their poverty by their own free will , as well as employees ( in our current definition) **
Thus scriptures would have conveyed the mistreatment of slaves was a despicable act/sin but today we can only find such details in the Qur’an and none other.
Let me refer you to what the Qur’an conveys
Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad (The City)
Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! ** It is to free a slave,** And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, ** Or some poor wretch in misery.** And to be of those who believe and exhort one
another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity.
Qur'an 24:27-34 Surah An-Nur (Light)
And such of ** your slaves as seek a writing of emancipation, write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of God which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world,** if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! God will be
Forgiving, Merciful...
Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, ** and to set slaves free;** and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity
and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.
Qur'an 5:89 Surah Al Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
God will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, ** or the liberation of a slave, ** and for him who
findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths...
58:3 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar then wish to go back on the words they uttered (it is ordained that such a one) ** should free a slave before they touch each other:** this are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
Ibrahim says: hence in Islam , all forms of Slavery was frowned upon but since at that period and time even employees and bonded workers would have been known as slaves, the practice is still prevalent across the board since most of us are being employed by others at some time or the other .
Hence
1) slavery ( or the trading in human beings) was frowned upon and gradually abolished in Islam
2) slaves, referring to workers has been practiced and is still practiced by all of us only today we call ourselves employees or laborers
3) slaves referring to prisoners of war or convicts is still practiced only today we have penal colonies or jails to keep them locked up.
4) slaves referring to property has been abolished in Islam but that does not mean some Arabs or anyother human being had not praticed them at some point in time by mistreating others.
Ibrahim says; rvikz this should answer all your questions but than again, it would be a waste of time for those who are actively engaged in spreading falsehoods or inciting vain talk.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Ibrahim
** Your life is not yours; it is only given to you for you to wake up. Don’t postpone the time of your awakening . **
Normally, in many other matters, I do not agree with Ibrahim,
But here he has spoken complete and utter truth!!
If, rvikz, you have some evidence in the form of a Quranic verse or even a hadith that tells you somehow that slavery is permitted or encouraged in Islam, then let us know.
Keep in mind, Islam didn't take over Saudia Arabia in one night. It was a gradual movement. Initially slaves were kept. However, like all evil things, the practice was GRADUALLY removed from society. The gradual removal, in my opinion, actually was preferable over immediate removal, because in graduate removal, you manage to coax the population into accepting slavery as morally wrong. Whereas, with immediate removal, you dont give the population any time to even think about the morality behind the issue - rather, the people feel that a ruling has been thrust upon them, and thus, they're less likely to follow it.
The point Ibrahim raised about bonded slavery existing today in the form of employment is interesting. You must ask yourself, did the slaves in the time of early Islam get paid? Did they recieve food and shelter from their masters, or what I like to call employees? How is that different from today where companies provide homes and cars to some of their top executives?
Or were these slaves driven ruthessly, without pay, without food, and without shelter? Or were they given substandard treatment? Were they treated as inferiors, or less intelligent beings?
It helps to examine issues from all sides.
Muslims are ALLOWED to have slave!!!
http://forum.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?t=1038
You seem to be in a massive denial Islam was built on slavery a large number of the converts to Islam converted to stop being slaves, the tax imposed on non Muslims was to encourage them to become slaves so that they would convert.
I think you miss the point if the Koran is a perfect book for all time why does it not say dont keep slaves under no circumstances dont keep slaves.
it is a sin dont do it.
it doesn’t it tells you how to treat them well on occasions.
its says its nice to free them sometimes so it understands that they are not happy as slaves but it supports slavery
even the verses that you quoted dont tell you to free yours slaves just some of your slaves if you think they have been good.
slavery was not phased out I know something about this subject because I have ancestors involved in the slave trade and British naval officers who helped stamp out the slave trade.
white slavers in most cases either bought the slaves they shiped to america from local blacks or muslim slave traders
contact the anti slavery society I think they still have offices in London and ask them about Muslim slavers and the history of Islam and slavery.
What is the difference between a slave and a servant?
slave
forced to work -- through mental or physical threat;
owned or controlled by an 'employer', usually through mental or physical abuse or threatened abuse;
dehumanised, treated as a commodity or bought and sold as 'property';
physically constrained or has restrictions placed on his/her freedom of movement
in some cases a servant could be classed as a slave in for example in a case of a bonded slave a person who gets into debt to a person and then becomes that persons slave .
The anti slavery society have issues with india and pakistan about bonded slavery at the moment
a free servant is someone who serves someone usually for money and is free to leave to seek other employment when they want.
jonny2mad
With the history your people have concerning slavery, I don't think your'e in a position to pass judgement on any issues relating to Slavery.
In Cristianity, there are no passages in the Bible which plainly condemn or criticize the institution of slavery. There are no verses which clearly denounce slave owners.
The first mention of slavery appears in Genesis, when Noah cursed his grandson Canaan (and all of the descendants of Canaan) because Noah's son Ham had seen Noah naked:
Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave.' "
Furthermore consider Exodus 21:2 which is part of the Laws of Moses:
21st Century King James Version "If thou buy a Hebrew slave..."
King James Version "If thou buy a Hebrew slave..."
Living Bible: "If you buy a Hebrew slave..."
Modern Language "When you buy a Hebrew slave..."
New International Version: "If you buy a Hebrew slave..."
New Living Translation: "If you buy a Hebrew slave..."
Revised Standard Version "When you buy a Hebrew slave..."
Also this is what your people say about Slavery:
"Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell.
"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina.
"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond.
'Before criticizing your neighbours garden, make sure yours is in pristine condition'!!
Whether you are an Atheist, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientologist, Gnostic etc etc. I would welcome comments and cross examination of the above quotes from you.
This way we can fairly debate the issue across the board.
And please, for the umpteenth time. Refrain from plugging Faithfreedom at every opportunity. Most of us are fully aware of their credentials and credibility!!!!
if you find anything they have to say to be untrue why dont you debate with them .at least that way your point of view would be on record .
I posted the link just to save time because it covered a wide area on one page.
and the history of my people and slavery is pretty mixed in the 1600-1848 we were very involved in slavery but we also were one of the major forces in stamping out slavery .
and the bible was used by both sides
Im not trying to defend christianity because I am not a christian although there are aspects of what he said that seem very wise .
and wherever Im coming from I think I asked a valid question
Sholay, absolutely correct on your statements.
At the advent of Islam the ways and means of enslavement were numerous while the outlets to freeing them were few; so Islam reversed this formula by multiplying the outlets of freedom and drying up the sources of enslavement. This is indeed commendable.
There are numerous legislated avenues through which Islam positively encouraged the reduction of slavery. I'll very briefly give some examples of these below (although i appreciate that Ibrahim has already given some useful examples in his earlier post). I'll mention evidence for each.
1. The prohibition of enslaving a free person
In an authentic tradition, the Prophet Muhammad (s) said: "Allah Most High has said: 'I will be an opponent to three types of people on the Day or Resurrection: One who makes a covenant in My Name but proves treacherous; one who sells a free person and eats his price; and one who employs a labourer and takes full work from him but does not pay him for his labour.'" (Bukhari 3:470)
2. The immediate freeing of slaves that are the owner's relatives
Allah's Messenger (s) said: "If one gets possession of a relative who is within the prohibited (marital) degrees, that person becomes free." (Abu Dawud #3938)
3. The prohibition of slave prostitution
Qur'an: "And force not your maids into prostitution if they desire chastity..." (24:33)
4. Introduction of legislation that slaves be permitted to purchase their freedom
It says in the Qur'an: "And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed on you." (24:33)
5. The order to set slaves free at the time of an eclipse
Asma bint Abu Bakr said: "The Prophet (s) ordered us to free slaves at the time of solar eclipses." (Bukhari 3:695)
6. Encouragement to educate, set free and marry slave-girls
Allah's Messenger (s) said: "Whoever has a slave-girl and educates and treats her well and then manumits her and marries her, he will earn a double reward." (Bukhari 3:720)
And Allah is the One Who grants success.
Iqbal
Here is from Q&A section of the site of Binoria Masjid Complex in Karachi. They are conservative Deobandis. The 1926 agreement being referred to is the treaty that was after the disbanding of Calipha by Kemal Atta turk and the European nations insisted that the nations being created from the Ottoman Empire outlaw slavery.
As far as I can understand:
Islam does encourage freeing of slaves and a resonable treatment (other than sexual matters) of slaves. However, it does allow enslaving of kafirs who have fought and lost. Again I am not a scholar, so I may be wrong. However, the people at the local masjid where I am, agreed with the above statement.
http://www.binoria.org/q&a/miscellaneous.html#possessions
Right Hand Possessions
Ques: What is the meaning of right hand possession and what was the purpose of having them. Some brothers in America think it is okay to have right hand possessions now in the USA.
Ans: Right hand possessions (Malak-ul-Yameen) means slaves and maids, those came in possession of Muslims through war or purchase. After having the possession of slave maid it is lawful and correct to have sexual relation with them. Even today if Muslims get possession over infidel country, this condition is possible, lawful and correct.
But according to 1926 agreement many countries have made commitment not to make the captives of war as their slave. If these countries act on the agreement, it is also permissible in Shari’ah.