The Warrior People - or the Merchants like us?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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This thread is my own thoughts, rather than an article. I’m not sure if it is about Politics or culture since it touches on both.

One thing that I’ve seen certain people on Gupshup constantly try and call out is that Pakhtuns are different to other Pakistani ethnic groups, due to their warrior ethos being contrasted with the merchant, commercial ethos of other Pakistani groups. In fact, some have tried to invent and drive wedges between Pakhtuns and other Pakistani ethnic groups by implying that this makes Pakhtuns a very different people from other Pakistanis.

But as I was looking at the news this week, I noticed a clear contrast between the situation in Iraq and in Afghanistan. In Iraq, urban Arabs, fighting without safe havens, have killed well over 2000 US and white soldiers, (and that’s just thenumber they’ve admitted), and the US is in disarray with calls for withdrawal, military officials sounding anything but optimistic, and everyone in the world aware that the USA is failing spectacularly.

In Afghanistan, however, the US is allied with the non-Pakhtun Afghans and is fighting in the most heavily Pakhtun-dominated regions. Yet the fight there seems to be going nowhere near as badly for the USA. Aside from constantly complaining that Pakistan is doing not enough to help, the USA does not seem to be overly worried abour Afghanistan like it is in Iraq. Not as many white or even Afghan soldiers are dying, attacks are not reported to be happening as frequently as in Iraq, and things are going much more according to the US plan than in Iraq.

In fact, at seems that 30,000 urban Iraqi arabs are putting up a much stiffer fight that the Pakhtun populated regions that the US and its allied are using military force in in Afghanistan.

Which begs the question - are we seeing a revolution in Pakhtun ethos? Is the Warrior ethos reduced to just a minority of Pakhtun society across Pakistan and Afghanistan? Is the Merchant ethos taking route instead … has the exposure to Pakistani society over the past couple of decades been changing the values of rural Pakhtuns such that they are becoming more focused on commercialism and prosperity rather than combat?

I remember in 2001 when the USA was going into Afghanistan, I foretold that they would suffer terrible casualties because the Afghans (and I meant the Pakhtuns) never took being conquered lightly. When there wasn’t a much of a fight put up for more than a couple of months, I initially attributed it to the USA’s technological superiority and thought that no amount of bravery could defeat that technology.

But then Iraq happened. With the USA having even more sophisticated technology at their hands, they still struggled to put down an arab revolt from a people who have no warrior history, and yet seem more committed to fighting occupation than to prospering.

Are Iraq’s Arabs the new Pakhtuns of the 21st century? And are Pakhtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan being heavily integrated into the values of their surrounding ethnic groups such that in a few more decads the Warrior ethos will be history?

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Re: The Warrior People - or the Merchants like us?

How long can anyone continue to fight? Especially when there isnt much of a fight left. Why should the Afghans fight the Americans, they are certainly not as bad as those who ruled the country before them.. Eventually, and inevitably, even the greatest of "warrior" societies choose prosperity over war and aggresion. Its only natural that societies follow the path of the society at large. With Globalization, trade and economy has become the weapon of choice, its only natural that people should fall in line with the capitalist profit orriented ethos...

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^ the same can be said about Iraq that the "new" rulers aren't as bad as the previous (Saddam) so why aren't those Iraqis giving up the fight? How long can they "sustain"? "Dollar" value was instilled into the Afghans during Russia-US (proxy) war and we saw how Talibans "conquered" so easily and even more so how Taliban lost control i.e. the "war"-lords received a big bunch of green-backs and stopped backing Talibans.

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Well, I think the isurgents are a minority and dont represent the society as a whole, the society as a whole seems ti have accepted the new order. Also, there are differences in the two groups. The Afghans have been at war for twenty year, what do they have to lose or gain now? What are they fighting for? They have had Islamists, communists, monarchy, and millions of refugees. Iraqis on the other hand have prospered in comparison, I guess they just havent seen the same devastation of War so they havent gotten to the point where they realize the futility of War. But still, on the whole, the Iraqi society has accpetd the new govt. Afghans have aswell, but even there, there are a minority that still choose to fight, just as in Iraq. So I think there will always be a few who contiue to fight, but society in general will choose to acpet and move towards prosperity through merchant type actiivties.

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I think, in case of Middle East, as long as foreign presence is there resistance would be stiff. But as soon as those foreign powers are replaced by the local leadership the resistance would diminish and the resistance would look for new political/religious ideology to resist the installed regimes. That has been the case in Middle East for the last 100-year or so. I don’t think the dynamics are changed, from what was during WWI and the situation of Iraq under the first British rule. One has to remember that the Arab resistance to French /British rule continued for almost 20-25 years through "divided tribesmen" from WWI till the creation of many modern Arab nation states. Even today the 22 Arab countries, which were created mostly by the Western colonial regimes, has internal resistance going on in it. The rate of coup-deta’ is just one indication.

I think that every nation/race/ethnicity on the face of the earth has its ups and downs, the Arabs have been on the receiving end of it for the last 100-150 years. But I think the Arabs and the Pakhtuns still have some warrior ethos left in them. May be all this killing and resistance would bring genuine leadership for them.

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The issue, though, is that no arab country has seen any kind of resistance like in Iraq. And that is surprising, because there has been no military conflict of significance involving warrior from Iraq ever since long before the Baghdad Khalifat was sacked. And ever since the sacking of the Khalifat, Iraq has pretty much been the land of rollever, be it the persians taking over from the mongols, or the ottomans taking over from the persians, or the british taking over from the ottomans. Even the iran-iraq war was nothing short of organised industrial-age warfare.

The Iraqis have a history of politics, culture, and trade, rather than war. But when pushed these people have pulled out of nowhere the ability and willingness to fight a bloody attrition war.

The Pakhtuns have a long and proud history of being the regions premiere warriors. From being the cream of the Moghul forces, to fierce, tenacious resistance against British and Russian occupation and their local puppets, they have suddenly fallen silent.

Have values in Iraq and amongst the Pakhtuns changed, such that they reversed? The Iraqis who formerly valued prosperity are giving that up for warfare, and the Pakhtuns who formerly valued the glory of war are now focusing on prosperity.

In Iraq, just as in Afganistan, those who wish to fight the Americans must do so with no outsight help and no outside safe havens. Yet more Iraqis have been putting up more of a fight for longer.

From my point of view, one of the factors giving Pakhtuns distinctiveness from the rest of Pakistanis has fallen. They are now even more Pakistani than they were before.

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this is more a cultural/social issue than a political one to be honest maddy..but my own two pence goes like this..the yanks compared to the ruskies are positively angels in Afghanistan..the pakhtun belt suffered levels of death and destruction over the last quarter of a century so simply by contrast the people were relieved initially at both the ouster of the taliban and the fact that the yanks kept themselves in kabul and a few other bases, secondly to fight wars you need to be safe somewhere..the original top line Taliban leadership was wiped out by the yanks thanks to the kind help of Pakistan (information on caves and weapons depots etc)..so there was a gap in time till the new leadership both learnt to fend for itself and to adapt to US tactics..case in point Hamid Mirs recent documentry on afghanistan described the major regrouping going on by the Taliban and it's allies. Thirdly, a well known person once said about the Pashtuns..the story always begins at the end..and has no grand organised story of victory and defeat..

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[QUOTE]

Have values in Iraq and amongst the Pakhtuns changed, such that they reversed? The Iraqis who formerly valued prosperity are giving that up for warfare, and the Pakhtuns who formerly valued the glory of war are now focusing on prosperity.
[/QUOTE]
Isn't this an overstatement? How can you claim that instead of a few religiously motivated citizens, war is now valued by the entire Iraqi nation or that this attitude (suddenly) has become engrassed in culture at large? Anyhow you should note that Arabs had evolved the value of war as a part of the process of cultural development and Islam only channalised that (rather than suddenly created it). You should also note that in initial phase Islam had been mainly propagated by tribal societies (Arabs, Barbars, Turks, and Pashtuns), through conquers and wars, who, due to the very nature of their tough survival conditions, valued martial ability and hardiness more than merchantalism.

Your choice of words also doesn't seem correct. Prosperity is a "terminal" value---- and war and peace are "instrumental" values. On the whole, we choose war or peace (which are means) in order to be free and prosperous(which are ends)...Pashtuns have choosen peace because they are realizing that in the changed circumstances, skills and economic endeavor can gurantee their prosperity and share in resources better than war. Moreover, previously their share in resources depended on the cohesion and numeric strength of their tribes and hardiness, bravery, and fighting spirit of their tribal kin. Further, for most of the time Pashtuns have lived in a stateless society where your existence, prosperity, and freedom was threatened by two enemies i.e. a fellow human or nature i.e. why "capacity for war" and "hardiness" was highly emphasized in Pashtun Society as captured in the following Pashto sayings.

*Ya nar sha ya da nar naukar sha *(either be brave or become a slave of the brave)

chai nan spak shwai, saba ba wrak shai ( if you tolerated humuliation today, you will face extinction tommorrow...)...

It is also wrong to say that Pashtun values are being "reversed". Rather their values are undergoing a transformation. They still emphasize egalitarianism, liberty, individualism, competativeness, valour, hospitality, personal strength, balance of power (as for as distribution of resources and authority in society is concerned), assertiveness (rather than docility/submissiveness), etc. but are re-interpreting these values according to the social and material circumstances of today. They are undergoing the same process as Germans were passing through during the first half of 19th Century.

Moreover, Pashtun values realy are different from the values of the adjoining societies. The adjoining societies (e.g. Persian, Hindustani, Chinese, etc.) remained under long spans of the "authoritarianism" of empires and kingdoms, which subdued their free spirit, Pashtuns, on the other hand, lived in an environment of (comparative) freedom (at least in internal matters) and upheld their spirit for freedom (no direct rule or strings of control)...

Pashtuns developed an egilitarian tribal culture to perfection the social philosophy of which was ** "balance of power"** (don't let anyone to dominate or dictate to you and if someone/tribe is gaining power make alliances with other tribes to balance him/it...don't be controlled by others)...Pashtun Society never made a transition to feudal society (except for a brief period in Charssada, Sawabi, and upper Swat)...Interestingly, now it is making a straight transition from a tribal order with economy based on primitive agriculture, cattle-breeding, and martial service to modern urban society...If even transformed by modernism, Pashtuns will retain their spirit for liberty, individualism, equality, and egalitariansm.

Adjoining societies (Hindustani, Chinese, and Persian) evolved an authoritarian feudal social culture to perfection with an uneven distribution of power and with hierarchical social and political structures that extend beyond family (to local chief up to the sovereign and despot)...

As for War, Pashtuns have fought such devastating wars throughout centuries, especially during the 19th and 20th centuries against the mightiest powers that they are now tired. More wars would be self destructive. They should rather divert their energies and aggressiveness to industry and skill.

Singapore ---- Yawn - 5
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The scale of re-emergence of Taliban is being exaggerated by Hamid Mir. Who he is and why is he doing this is apparent. Nevertheless, as long as Americans are not imposing and don’t interfer in the internal system of their society, Pashtuns would be focussed on organizing on their shattered homes and lives. This time around, they have a different world view. Taliban movement will die out soon.

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^^ you guys are certainly comparing apples (Afghans) to oranges (Iraqis).

The apple is bone dry so no more juice. Oranges on the other hand are the red-blooded ones. So the squeeze is still on that is constantly spilling the red colored liquid on the streets of Baghdad.

On a serious note, there are many factors that make Afghans and Iraqis completely different kind of people. Some of these factors are: exhaustion, lack of logistic support for insurgents, and last but not least: difference between Afghan and Arab culture.

  1. Exhaustion from war

Pushtoons in Afghanistan along with other minorities such as Uzbeks, and Tajiks (+ some hazaras) have suffered total loss of 25% of its entire population. This is like Pakistan suffering the loss of (I pray to God that it never happens) 37 million people. Or Bharat suffering a sudden loss of 250 million Bharatis (I pray to God that it never happens).

Let me restate the facts just to show the enormity of the situation. 37 million lost in Pakistan means that almost 4 Karachis are gone in a short time. Completely utterly destroyed with no building left standing and no one to take care of shops, factories, banks etc. (I pray to God that it never happens).

Almost two generations of proud Afghan-Pushtoons practically grew up in refugee camps of Pakistan. Their farms, houses, shops, road infrastructure completely gone. They are truly left between the rock and the hard place.

Unfortunately even Pushtoons on Eastern side of Durand line have not realized. Otherwise we would not have seen Waziris supporting Arrabobs to bring more death and destruction in Afghanistan.

  1. Logistic support.

MS you were right about Pakistan shutting down the supply valve of Talibobs. Modern insurgencies cannot be fought without an intricate web of logistic support. Men, material, money, medical supplies, and yes bombs have to be supplied and arranged from somewhere. MAToo Umer never realized that Arrabobs may have money, but they cannot arrange logistics for a successful Talibobi campaign. Once Pakistan kicked the one-eyed MAToo, the poor fellow had no choice but to ride his 25 cc motorbike straight to the dusty caves.

Iraqi insurgents do have logistic support and supply lines coming from Syria, and Iran. However these will slowly be shut down and Iraqi insurgency will be squeezed to nothingness.

  1. Culture. MS you were right on the money! literally when you mentioned that Afghans are more interested in setting up shops than starting another fight. Afghans and especially Afghan pushtoons have considerably changed in the last 5 centuries or so.

Don't believe in Kabuli Kommies on this forum, most of Afghan-Pushtoons are traders and hard working laborers by nature. Only these few University educated Kommies are anti-business and anti-labor. These Kommies would rather sit in cafe, drink tea, and smoke charsi hukkah. These lazy ar$e intellectuals (and by gollie we have plenty of them in Lahore and Karachi too) would rather suck the blood like leaches. They don't want to work for living. They instead want to live in a Kommie haven where every joe shmuck can sit on dirt and drink Vodka.

Iraqi and other Arrabob insurgents are bunch of tribals. They have no history and none for future. Their single aim is to burn and kill their fellow Arabs. Look these Iraqi insurgents are committing murder of their own Shias (1000 died on the bridge, and 100s killed in the Shia mosque bombings). They were OK if US hands them the power. Iraqi Arrabobs true fight is against Shia dominated Iraqi government. To understand arrabobs, just look at our own Mullahs. These MaToos have killed and bombed Pakistani-Shias, Pakistani-Ahmadis, and Pakistani-Christians. These shameless beardo weirdos have no idea of how to live in 21st century.

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test

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It’s not the Taliban who will lead an opposition..as is tradition in the region..it is those you least suspect..

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MS, you and your kind are spreading this propaganda through out the internet and specifically on Afghan forums on the behest of ISI. You people can not fool us anymore, those days are gone when you would tells us that pashtuns are brave and religious and our innocent people will fall on this but now we have realized and even our mullahs have realized as well that Pakistan is no friend of Pashtuns or Islam, you can not use us any more against your enemies this time the USA. We would like to be called merchants not worriers because the time demands this. The presence of USA is a blessing for Afghans and Pashtuns and every Afghan and Pashtun should help the US to eliminate our common enemy, the ruling mafia of Pakistan and its armed forces. US will destroy the source of terrorism and the Punjabi nuclear bomb. God bless the US of A!

^^^ What is up with ppl ^^^
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I don’t agree! The very culture that glorifies war is changing now. For the first time in history, Pashtuns have been exposed to modern influences. Their tribal socio-political structure and warrior culture are crumbling. You should note that an entire shift is occuring in their life style. To imagine that they will return again to the culture of war is a wrong estimation.

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Malakand, MS seems to have written all this with good intentions.

...Gupshup Navigation...
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Lod, this guy MS is a sneak, he posted a thread an month ago in thet he said how to divide pashtuns in order to control them. Based on that he can not be trusted, he and his gang are trying to ignite Pashtuns to fight the Americans, just like they made us fought against the russians, so that their A.S.Ses could be saved. This time this will not happen, Americans are not leaving until they destroy the source or terrorism and the Punjabi nuclear bomb. Punjabis have to fight their own war.

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first of all my dear malakand.. the so called americans u cherish.. the destroyers of teh terrorism... i duno which world u been livin in.. bt they have been fully classified as a terrorist govt by many countries.. bt becuase of their power and bulines.. no one can do anything.. as tey say.. might is right.. bt dat doesnt make their wrong right.. didnt u hear the venenzula prez.. sayin in NYC in UN connference that the america is a terrorist state??

as history says.. wat goes around.. cumz around.. and many empires tried mingling with other countires and their politice.. and tables changed when they went out of hand..

bt anyway.. as for pashtoons.. the image i get is.. money thse days have becum very powerful instrument. pashtoons hav been used by many empires for their own use.. bt they are powerful ppl.. bt becuase of years of war.. lossin soo many loved ones.. and treated like **** by many countires.. and only wanting to gang bang them.. they are starting to think.. its not worth fighting no more.. becuase there is nothing to fight for..

i dono wat is right or wrong.. as i am not in afghan.. bt theri society is shattered due to soo much war.. and the the order they use to hav in the tribes... is also shattered due to all the populating being eitehr dead, misplaced or in pakistan..

bt inshallah they will be bak on their two feet. will take time.. and also.. as they say the final army will come out of those areas for the final battle..

Allah hafiz

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Malakand is only trying to cover his arse after the butt wopping he and his Taliban brothers got at the Hands of the Americans…:hehe:
If you cant beat them, join um…

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:rotfl: Malakand, you are joker, only one of a kind :rotfl:

Using your own logic, you are spreading the propaganda of helping US at the behest of CIA so Afghans/Pashtuns eradicate any ‘uprising’/‘opposition’ to US forces.

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taliban will be back...those who think taliban will die soon r making fun of themselves...taliban r still stronger in many parts and gaining more power and strength..hamid mir articles r the proves for wht i m saying...INSHALLAH TALIBAN WILL AGAIN RULE AFGHANISTAN..