And the privelege that you talk about brother- for marrying more than one woman it is in regards to the following:
and **any* believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers;*
Notice the emphasis on 'any'? No specific number is given there- hence the allowance was in place for the Prophet(PBUH) to marry 'any' number of women.
PakistaniAbroad:
I think the inheritance laws you pointed out, the lack of a provision for polygamous relationships is an important point.
I think that your analysis of the Qur'an, as it pertains to other Prophets and their 'monogomous' relationships, is also very interesting.
I have 2 questions:
1) In the context of your analysis who is the audience for the two verses that discuss wive(s) plural - 4:3, and 4:129. Are these verses solely revealed for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Who is the audience for these verses?
2) In order for your analysis to hold, it seems as though we have to ignore all historical evidence (non-Qur'anic) which indicate that some of these Prophets had multiple wives. Would that be a correct statement?
If you've already addressed these questions in your analysis and I missed it, I apoligize.
Achtung
Ace
Patience my friend, we're getting to 4:3. In order to understand that verse we needed to understand what we've discussed above and allow time for digestion and any questions/ comments.
The special allowance for the Prophet were to enable him to create familial ties with more tribes and also to remove social stigmas about the kind of women to whom one could get married.
[quote]
And the privelege that you talk about brother- for marrying more than one woman it is in regards to the following:
and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers;
Notice the emphasis on 'any'? No specific number is given there- hence the allowance was in place for the Prophet(PBUH) to marry 'any' number of women.
[/quote]
hmmm the arabic word used is amratan which is woman/a woman. i'm not sure where you got the iea of "any" here... but it shouldn't matter, as the number of women allowed for the Prophet to marry isn't under discussion, the point was to illustrate the special allowance for him regarding marrying AND keeping existing wives and other women, some without dower.
Achtung
[quote]
1) In the context of your analysis who is the audience for the two verses that discuss wive(s) plural - 4:3, and 4:129. Are these verses solely revealed for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Who is the audience for these verses?
[/quote]
We are going to discuss these next, but no harm done in knowing that 4:3 addresses All People and 4:129 addresses people who asked the Prophet the question regarding women and/or any couple.
[quote]
In order for your analysis to hold, it seems as though we have to ignore all historical evidence (non-Qur'anic) which indicate that some of these Prophets had multiple wives. Would that be a correct statement?
[/quote]
Correct. My argument is based on the Qur'an, so in order to uphold the Qur'anic evidence and prove the message in it to be consistent, extra Qur'anic texts need to be ignored.
There is No Spoon
Dear brother, my comments were in regard to your conclusion -*PakistaniAbroad: It doesn’t get any clear than this. The previlege to have more than one wife is for the Prophet ALONE. *- I just wanted to point out tha this conclusion can not be drawn from what you’ve posted so far.
Pardon me for my interruptions- please continue on with your proofs.
Originall posted by Hasnain
PakistaniAbroad,
Might i ask where you received your understanding of the verse in question?
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
I was dissatisfied with the available translations.. so I took it upon myself to research it with the help and guidance of some like minded individuals.
[/quote]
And is your understanding of this verse or the understanding of "some like minded individuals" better than the understanding of the Companions of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam?
[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited April 05, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
And is your understanding of this verse or the understanding of "some like minded individuals" better than the understanding of the Companions of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam?
[/quote]
It's NEVER been proven that the narrations you THINK are from the Prophet and his Companions are actually from them.
There is No Spoon
Ok.. having established some important facts, let's revisit 4:3 in it's context and with an open mind to see what it REALLY says...
Context is VERY important because 4:3 follows from 4:2 and continues into 4:4 and out of context it can be abused for sanctioning something like Polygamy!
[an-Nisa' 4:1] O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God,through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you
PakistaniAbroad: Who's the audience? All Mankind
What's the topic?? Reverence of God.
[an-Nisa' 4:2] And give to the orphans their property, and do not substitute worthless (things) for (their) good (ones), and do not devour their property (as an addition) to your own property; this is surely a great crime.
This verse is about Orphans both Male AND Female.
How can you best summarize the instruction?
[list=1]
[li]Give Orphans their Property [/li][li]Do not substitute Worthless things for their Good ones [/li][li]Do not devour their property [/li][/list=a]
Similar instructions are found in 4:10, 6:152 and 17:34.
Here Allah has laid out the foundation of the discussion. This is how you deal with Orphan's inheritance.
[al-Nisa 4:3]
wa in khiftum alla tuqsitoo = And if, you-feared (plural), that-not, be-just/be- equitable (plural)
fil yatama = in/into the-orphans (both male and female)
fa ankihu = so you-marry-off (we've established the correct translation from within the Qur'an itself by studying 24:32 and 28:27)
ma taba lakum = what became-permitted/became-allowed for-you/to-you (we'll discuss this permission)
min al-Nisai = from/of the-women
mathna wa thulatha wa rubaa = twos and threes and fours (extremely important that this is not two, three, four)
fa in khiftum = so if you-feared
alla taAdilu = that-not you-be-just/you-be-equitable
fa vahidatan = so one (female)
aw ma malakat aymanukum = or/even-if what owned/possessed your-rights/your-oaths
zalika adnaa alla taulu = that nearer that-not you-(plural)-side-away-from-justice/you-be-unfair
[al-Nisa 4:4]
va aatu al-Nisa = and give (plural) the-women
saduqatihinna nihlah = their-(female) CHARITIES precisely/specified-personally
fa in tibna lakum = so if they-allowed/they-permitted
an shayin minhu nafsan = from a-thing from-it/therefrom self/themself
fa kuluhu haneean mareea = so you-eat-it pleasurable wholesome
Now putting together the literal translation of the meaning into a more readable one:
[al-Nisa 4:3]
And if you-feared that you can't be just/equitable in the orphans (both male and female) so you marry off what became permitted/allowed for you from/of the women, twos and threes and fours; so if you feared that you can't be just/equitable, so one (female) or what possessed your rights/oaths. Thus you won't side away from justice.
[al-Nisa 4:4]
and give the women their charities precisely, so if they allowed/permitted from a thing therefrom themself, so you eat it pleasurable wholesome.
PakistaniAbroad: 4:2 has specified Orphans BOTH MALE AND FEMALE and what a 'just' and 'equitable' behaviour is supposed to be towards them.
Remember these Orphans could be our near relatives too!!
[al-Balad 90:15] To the orphan with claims of relationship
PakistaniAbroad: 4:3 begins by saying that if one fears injustice on their part in the matters of these Orphans...
What should follow??
Obviously a statement that gives a solution to this moral dilemma of someone being unable to equitably discharge Orphan's affairs as described in 4:2.
And very rightly the instruction follows to Marry Off what became permitted or allowed from the women
A comprehensive instruction telling that out of the Orphans, it's the Female ones that need to be married off (note the use of min al-Nisa). If the verse was talking about ONLY female orphans from the beginning, it wouldn't need an extra qualifier now.
Also ma taba lakum becomes clear when we study 4:4 and realize that it's their permission that's needed. So the women who become permitted or allowed are the ones who themself agree to the arrangement.
twos and threes and fours is the biggest red herring which traditional translators ignore intentionally. It's not one and two and three.. it's talking about marrying off Orphans in twos, threes or fours, which immediatley warrants the next statement.
If you can't be equitable between the ones you are marrying off, than just one Orphan Woman or even one whom your right-hand/oath possesses.
rvikz
Thanks for being so patient sir, we tackle Ma malakat aymanukum now.
These women are of the times when they fled into a Muslims protection after deserting their disbelieving parents/guardians/husbands. Right Hand in the Qur'an represents finances. Thus these women are under a Muslim's monetary protection, and as such a Muslim had similar obligations towards them as the Orphans.
(These are NOT slaves. They are a member of the household which is why in several places in the Qur'an they have been treated as such, e.g. dress codes can be relaxed in front of them etc.)
And Thus by marrying them off, Allah says we would avoid injustice. Once again this is the injustice of mishandling the Orphan's inheritance and devouring it while they stay under our monetary dependance while they are of age and able to handle their own affairs themselves.
Immediately afterwards follow the rules of how inheritance or their property needs to be dealt with in the case of marrying them off.
4:4 begins with an instruction to give the women their saduqatihinna precisely.
It's EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to note that saduqatihinna is NOT dowries or dowers.
Dowries has been consistently referred to in the Qur'an as ujurahunna
NOWHERE in the Qur'an is saduqatihinna used for dowers
Therefore right here we realize the fact that the traditional translations have played a number on us by intentionally mistranslating a word to support their early idea of marrying women, instead of marrying them off.
When we treat this properly in context, it makes perfect sense that we are to give the female Orphans their inheritance intact, but IF they themself of their own accord leave something for us, it becomes a wholesome share and is to be enjoyed without fear.
In continuity, 4:5 and 4:6 stay on topic of Orphans and how to deal with their inheritance, proving that this was all about Orphans and their matters and not about Polygamy.
[an-Nisa' 4:5] To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which God hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice.
[an-Nisa' 4:6] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is God in taking account.
PakistaniAbroad: Let's now revisit some other verses and understand them in the light of our new understanding
[an-Nisa' 4:127] They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: God doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphaned women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire *tankihuhunna*, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but God is well-acquainted therewith.
PakistaniAbroad: Having understood 4:3 which talks about Orphan Women and marrying them off, we now understand that 4:127 is talking about 4:3 and once again the form of ankihu used is tankihuhunna and is translated best as you marry them (female) off
Topic changes to matters of divorce for a couple:
[an-Nisa' 4:128] If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
[an-Nisa' 4:129] Ye are never able to be fair and just between the women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away altogether, so as to leave her hanging. If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
[an-Nisa' 4:130] But if they disagree (and must part), God will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for God is He that careth for all and is Wise.
PakistaniAbroad: Allah tells us that Greed can sway a man' s intention which makes him unable to be just in the matter of a divorce with a women, where he can, out of fear of parting with the money given to her, not divorcer her altogether but keep her hanging. So if both of them reconcile, it's best, but if they part, Allah gives them both out of his bounty..
NO POLYGAMY.. just simple verses regarding divorce.
Conclusion
We were faced with the traditional definition of the verses and we reviewed the exact meanings in the light of the Qur'an.
Logically speaking it all adds up now.
In Islam when a woman is married it's a financial burden of providing for her OFF of the guardian and transferred to the husband. The husband has to give dower to the woman and the guardian has to just give the woman away.
Therefore when a Muslim feels the pinch and feels (s)he can't be equitable with the Orphan's money, it's better to marry the ones who have consented off by twos, threes, fours. If the Muslim fears that would cause injustice with any of them then only one or a women who is financially supported.
These women are to be given their inheritance precisely, unless they themself leave something which is to be enjoyed.
Marrying OTHER women makes no sense cuz a Muslim in financial trouble has to pay her dower too while the possibility of doing injustice with the Orphans' money remains.
The only way the whole system adds up is with the understanding that 4:3 is talking about marrying off the women orphans and not about a blank check for Polygamy.
This view then is supported by the absence of any inheritance laws for multiple wives, or mention of multiple wives anywhere else, either for the Prophets or otherwise
[`Abasa 80:33] At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,-
[`Abasa 80:34] That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,
[`Abasa 80:35] And from his mother and his father,
[`Abasa 80:36] And from his wife and his children.
[`Abasa 80:37] Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others.
Allah Knows Best
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited April 06, 2002).]
Dear PakistaniAbroad- I think the translation regarding marring 'off' the orphans does make more sense, however, I fail to understand how 'fa-ankiho' could be interpretted as marrying off? Ankiho is the 'command' form of marry-ING(instead of marrying off) i thought? In 24:32 it flows with the context hence it can be interpretted as marrying OFF.
Can you please explain what is the 'command' form of marry-ING someone then? I.E. lets say I wanted to say 'Marry the orphan ones' instead of saying 'Marry OFF the orphan ones'- how would that be phrased then?
And BTW- just to clarify my understanding- I would never take the verse as a blank cheque for polygamy. I am not a big supporter of polygamy as is, but I was of the opinion that IF there are orphan girls (I.E if you're in the specific scenario) who dont have anyone to look after them it may be permitted to marry them as in a way to support them.
[quote]
originally posted by Hasnain:
And is your understanding of this verse or the understanding of "some like minded individuals" better than the understanding of the Companions of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam?
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
It's NEVER been proven that the narrations you THINK are from the Prophet and his Companions are actually from them.
[/quote]
You did not answer my question.
We know many of the Comapanions themselves married more than one lady. look at Uthmaan - radhiAllaahu anhu - who married two of the Prophet's - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - daughters.
Ace
[quote]
I fail to understand how 'fa-ankiho' could be interpretted as marrying off? Ankiho is the 'command' form of marry-ING(instead of marrying off) i thought? In 24:32 it flows with the context hence it can be interpretted as marrying OFF.
Can you please explain what is the 'command' form of marry-ING someone then? I.E. lets say I wanted to say 'Marry the orphan ones' instead of saying 'Marry OFF the orphan ones'- how would that be phrased then?
[/quote]
It's still translated as marry but the context dictates the use of the marry off translation of meaning, similar to that in 24:32 and 28:27
Hasnain
[quote]
You did not answer my question.
We know many of the Comapanions themselves married more than one lady. look at Uthmaan -radhiAllaahu anhu - who married two of the Prophet's - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - daughters.
[/quote]
I think I did answer your question.
Your primary source for 'history' are the same narrations. No Historian of any merit takes them seriously.
Some marriages may be from times when these laws weren't promulgated yet and even after the revelation, there was a provision to keep existing relationships and not break them.
Also, this particular surah is considered to be amongh the ones revealed in the final stages of revelation, however that information itself is from similar narrations so treat it with a bag of salt.
what a bloody shame
so many bright minds fighting on my understanding ur understanding
do u think u will get a medal of approval from allah?
dont u think it wud be better to practice instead of honing ur skills on putting one over the other
mayb i am not in ur league
mayb i am dumb
one thing i am sure of is i am dumber than all of u
but still wat do u get out of this?asking coz i am dumb
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
I think I did answer your question.
[/quote]
No, no I regret to say that you did not answer my question, so i shall kindly repeat it again: Is your understanding of the above verse (or any other aspect of Allaah's Religion) better than that of the Comapnions?
[quote]
Some marriages may be from times when these laws weren't promulgated yet and even after the revelation, there was a provision to keep existing relationships and not break them.
[/quote]
You have no evidence for this "may be" statement. Islaam is not based on conjecture of tickled fancies.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Your primary source for 'history' are the same narrations. No Historian of any merit takes them seriously.
[/quote]
It is these very 'primary sources of history' of mine that you yourself refer to while establishing your salaat (prayer). How may i ask you pray?
And please name one historian of "any merit" who does not perform his/her prayer in the manner which is widely recognised today; the very prayer that was brought to us through the understanding of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anhum - via the same historical sources that you ridicule this day.
[quote]
Orignally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Also, this particular surah is considered to be amongh the ones revealed in the final stages of revelation, however that information itself is from similar narrations so treat it with a bag of salt.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, i don't understand what you are implying here? I hate to imagine what i think it is, so please clarify.
regards
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
Hasnain,
let's discuss this in another thread, and leave this one for a discussion on the topic at hand.
so do you have anything to add to the topic? any cross examination, or points that i may have overlooked?
[quote]
Orignally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Hasnain,
let's discuss this in another thread, and leave this one for a discussion on the topic at hand.**
[/quote]
My questions are all relevant and related to the topic at hand.
You quoted a verse from the Qur'aan and interpreted it according to your desires. So i then asked you whether you believed that your interpretation and understanding of the verse (you yourself had quoted) is better than that of the Companions.
Millions of people can come with their own interpretation according to what they wish/desire to believe (including the enemies of Islaam with hidden agendas), so which then is the correct and most accurate interpretation and understanding?
So again, i am compelled to ask you:
Is your understanding of the above verse (or any other aspect of Allaah's Religion) better than that of the Companions?
And once more, i quote myself:
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
**It is these very 'primary sources of history' of mine that you yourself refer to while establishing your salaat (prayer). How may i ask you pray?
And please name one historian of "any merit" who does not perform his/her prayer in the manner which is widely recognised today; the very prayer that was brought to us through the understanding of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anhum - via the same historical sources that you ridicule this day.**
[/quote]
Also ...
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
so do you have anything to add to the topic? any cross examination, or points that i may have overlooked?
[/quote]
Indeed i do. And here it is, once again:
[quote]
Orignally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Also, this particular surah is considered to be amongh the ones revealed in the final stages of revelation, however that information itself is from similar narrations so treat it with a bag of salt.
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
I'm sorry, i don't understand what you are implying here? I hate to imagine what i think it is, so please clarify.
[/quote]
Are you questioning the authenticity of the verse you posted here thus the authenticity of the Qur'aan?
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited April 12, 2002).]
My desires?? What have I to gain from it?? What part of the argument do you disagree with?? This is precisely the reason I invited a critique. Please re-read my argument and feel free to point out flaws.
Don’t blame me if it doesn’t match word to word with what you believe in. Discuss, don’t just sit and nitpick.
if you are referring to compilations you THINK are from the Companions.. then yes.. I prefer to use my mind than believe in those fabrications alluded to people long dead.
Yes, but you have something called ‘aql’ or wisdom with which you can sort out the most compelling argument and discard the ludicrous ones. You don’t have to cling to wrong interpretations and fabrication just because the enemies of Islam pasted the name of people you hold in high esteem over it.
Once again this is a thread to discuss Polygamy as discussed in the Qur’an. Feel free to argue points and educate me on my mistakes in interpretation.
I don’t ask you what you recite in your Salat. It’s between me and the power I submit to and I am fully able to establish my link with that entity without the need for contradictory fabrications.
the same myopic thinking that the whole Islamic world is plagued with
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
“Historians of merit” could be non-Muslims too and judging from the world scene today.. they ARE.. Muslims are busy fighting amongst themselves and legpulling each other over who’s a Muslim and who’s out of that ‘elite’ circle of mainstream Islam.
I’m being skeptical of information received through word of mouth only and the subject was the sequence of revelation of verses as “accepted” by Muslims today.
My allegiance to the Qur’an is hardly a secret on this forum… try a lower blow next time.
So it shall be written, so it shall be done
PakistaniAbroad,
It is a crying shame that you do not even understand Arabic (wallaahu 'aalim) but have suddenly become a self-appointed scholar of the language of the Qur'aan. Allaahu yahdeek.
I find it difficult to imagine how one can take the words of Allaah so lightly and casually while interpreting!
[quote]
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Now can anyone tell me how a blieving woman can be someones second or third or fourth wife without going against the Qur'anic principle laid down for marriage with singles ONLY??
[/quote]
This statement is exactly what i mean by "following your desires".
Your interpretation of the verse is worthless, just as my understanding and interpretation is worthless, if it is not in line with the understanding and interpreation of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anhum.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Yes, but you have something called 'aql' or wisdom with which you can sort out the most compelling argument and discard the ludicrous ones.
[/quote]
For sure we have been blessed with 'aql' (which incidently means intellect and not wisdom), but knowledge and understanding of the Deen comes from Allaah - subhaan wa ta'aala - and not from our 'aql'. If everyone simply followed their 'aql' and Islaam was based on 'aql' alone, then why is it that not all the people in the world today follow one Religion? Why do we have so many different ideologies, thoughts and interpretations?
There are billions of people in the world, and ever more since time, so what makes you think your interpretation of events, regulations and verses are correct or most accurate? But we know that the Companions were the best of mankind, as Allaah himself testifies in the Qur'aan, and He is pleased with them. No doubt, they have been blessed with the best understanding of the Deen and are the most best generation of Muslims. Then why is it, that you give precedence to your whims and desires over the interpretation of the Companions? Why is it that you reject the actions of the Companions for marrying more than one lady, just because their actions do not fall into your category while interpreting verses of the Qur'aan. The Prophet - salallaahu 'alahyhi wa sallam - himself married more than once and gave two of his daughters to Uthmaan - radhiAllaahu anhu.
**Is your understanding of Allaah's Deen then better than the understanding of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his Companions. Or are you upon a religion better than that which Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - came with?
This is the question you keep avoiding.**
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
You don't have to cling to wrong interpretations and fabrication just because the enemies of Islam pasted the name of people you hold in high esteem over it.
[/quote]
It is easy for you to refer to the scholars of ahadeeth in a slanderous manner. What makes you think you know better?
[quote]
Originally posted by pakistaniAbroad:
I don't ask you what you recite in your Salat. It's between me and the power I submit to and I am fully able to establish my link with that entity without the need for contradictory fabrications.
[/quote]
You're more than welcome to ask me, please go ahead, by all means. **And i would love to know how you pray, and where you received your understanding with regards to your prayer? This is a question you always seem to dodge so professionally in all threads.
Why are you afraid to discuss your prayer? How will you teach your children or other Mulsims if you feel ashamed to discuss it with me? As a Muslim it is of paramount importance that we try our best to correct our prayer from any errors as it is the second most fandamental pillar of our Religion. I am therefore willing to discuss my prayer with you, so that you can correct any mistakes i may have.**
[quote]
"Historians of merit" could be non-Muslims too and judging from the world scene today.. they ARE.. Muslims are busy fighting amongst themselves and legpulling each other over who's a Muslim and who's out of that 'elite' circle of mainstream Islam.
[/quote]
Please, allow me to get this straight, but are you suggesting that non-Muslim historians have a better understanding of Islaam than the Companions of Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam!?
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
My allegiance to the Qur'an is hardly a secret on this forum... try a lower blow next time.
[/quote]
By giving the verses of the Qur'aan a new meaning from what Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - taught, proves anything but allegiance to the Book of Allaah.
You have a tendancy not to answer questions.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hasnain:
Are you questioning the authenticity of the verse you posted here thus the authenticity of the Qur'aan?
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Discuss, don't just sit and nitpick.
[/quote]
If there is a 'nit', then by definition, there is an open invitation to pick it. If you do not wished to be picked on, then please, don't play the 'nit'.
&peace
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[This message has been edited by Hasnain (edited April 13, 2002).]
and your point is??
If you had cared to read the subsequent posts you would have realized that I was making a point. I provided the more suitable translation later.. and yes I agree your lack of effort to even try to understand the scripture on your own is surely pathetic.
Oh really?? then why is it that those who follow these writings alluded to the comapanions are still divided in sects??
Simply because none of the Companions are alive, and after some reading and research I have absolutely no trust in the compilations which claim they are of the Companions.
You forget that the Companions weren’t born Muslims.. they followed cultural traditions. Islam took some time to set in. it wasn’t overnight. Hence their current marriages prevailed and were not overturned by the Qur’an. Whether they remarried after the promulgation of these laws is once again debatable because of the lame sources for an accurate history.
The Prophet had special provisions.. you should have at least studied the thread carefully.
You will never ever fathom the point that the fabrications you adore are NOT from the Prophet or anyone holy. You are soo gullible that it’s not even funny.. What if Bukhari had compiled a version similar to mine. Today you’d be fighting me in DEFENCE of the argument.. How lame?? where is your own understanding?? your own mind?
Why do you think the Qur’an invites you to ponder on the verses?? Why doesn’t it say.. “Dont try this at home.. Qur’an is difficult.. learn from the Companions”..
NO it says Allah has made his verses easier to understand .. so is there anyone who will reflect on it? Have you reflected Hasnain?? ever?? or are you content being a lemming?
because I have a head on my shoulder which I choose to use. You take the lemming way out. To each their own.
I recite the Qur’an. I received the order from within the Qur’an to do that.
afraid?? I think you and others who are so desperate to wriggle out of discussing the subject at hand and try and ‘corner’ me on something else have totally mistaken my reluctance to discuss something unrelated to the thread. Once again, my Salaat is for Allah ALONE. I have not been commanded to offer it for show or proof to anyone. This is not an inquisition and you certainly are no authority to ask.
errors??? hah.. who said that YOU are praying the ‘right’ way?? There we go with the Mullah righteous brigade; starting the inquisition.. “correcting” everyone’s prayers..
What makes u so sure your method is right or it’s being accepted?? spare me your ‘expert’ opinions on my prayer
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
We were discussing HISTORY and ABSOLUTELY.. right now, Non-Muslims have a better grasp of History as it happened corroborated with archaelogical discoveries.
WRONG. You have ABSOLUTELY no proof that the word of Bukhari and Muslim is actually the Prophet’s word. I respect the Prophet enough not to take everything alluded to him as his word. I choose to use my filter of intellect and not accept garbage when being pushed in the guise of religious teachings.
The Qur’an reigns supreme.. no man written document will be allowed to distort it.
btw, i’m still waiting to show me what u’re made of.. let’s go.. do a critique of the arguments i’ve posted on the subject of the thread.
Use your OWN head for a change.. let me see how well you can dissect and challenge the logic. Find the inheritance verses for a polygamous situation or prophet’s polygamy examples. Correct me where i’ve missed out anything. Be constructive in your criticism for a change.
I’m willing to learn.
So it shall be written, so it shall be done
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Oh really?? then why is it that those who follow these writings alluded to the comapanions are still divided in sects??
[/quote]
Because people like yourself led them astray with their own understanding of the verses, different to that of the Companions. Many followed their 'aql' in the same manner as yourself and introduced numerous interpretations for single verses, that had already been explained by the Prophet - sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his Companions. And such as yourself, they were adamant to follow their personal desires rather than investigate the truth of the matter. So when you have many interpretations, this leads to nothing but more and more sects. And you and your like are one cause of such divisions amongst the Muslims. How can we unite, when there is no base to return to and unite upon for our understanding of Allaah's Deen? And what better understanding is there for Allaah's Religion than that of the Companions - radhiAllaahu anhum?
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Simply because none of the Companions are alive, and after some reading and research I have absolutely no trust in the compilations which claim they are of the Companions.
[/quote]
That is a very poor and quite absurd argument: " ...because none of the Companions are alive ..."
Do you read history books? The history books are written after the events they describe, and these events can often be traced back to determine the authenticity of the historical facts if the correct methodology of inquiry is applied. If you cared to study, you would notice that the collection of ahadeeth is a science in it's own right. Great effort and care has been taken to investigate the authenticity and fabrication of hadeeth by the specialist scholars of ahadeeth.
If you have reservations with regards to the credibility of the collectors of ahadeeth, then look up their biographies written by others. You will find what the people have said regarding the honesty and truthfulness of Imaams Bukhaaree and Muslim. What made the people accept Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a Messenger? It was his honesty and truthfulness before he acknowledged prophethood. These characteristics are also evident in the lives of Bukhaaree and Muslim - raheemaaAllaah.
[quote]
Orignally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
You forget that the Companions weren't born Muslims.. they followed cultural traditions. Islam took some time to set in. it wasn't overnight. Hence their current marriages prevailed and were not overturned by the Qur'an. Whether they remarried after the promulgation of these laws is once again debatable because of the lame sources for an accurate history.
[/quote]
Once again, conjectural statements based on whims and desires. How can you expect anyone to believe you without presenting any evidence? This is exactly my point: you are hasty to spill out words, but have no proof. When the sharee'ah was revealed, the Muslims divorced their non-Muslim spouses (who were mushrikeen) and re-married Muslims. Also, if you look at 'Ali - radiAllaahu anhu - who was the first of the children to embrace Islaam, then clearly he was not married at the time, but later married more than once. Furthermore, many of the tabi'een and tab tabi'een married more than once. So your argument has no leg to stand on and is completely flawed.
[quote]
You are soo gullible that it's not even funny..
[/quote]
If my gullibility excites you and keeps you on your toes, then it does not say much for you.
[quote]
What if Bukhari had compiled a version similar to mine. Today you'd be fighting me in DEFENCE of the argument.. How lame?? where is your own understanding?? your own mind?
[/quote]
"What if"? Again, hypothetical issues! The fact is that Bukhaaree did not. I can see that you find it difficult to stick with facts and reality. I find it most astonishing how you expect anyone to take you seriously by basing your arguments on desires. As for my understanding, then that is clearly with that of the Companions insha'Allaah. And this is where the 'aql' comes into action, by knowing which path and understanding to take, by the Will of Allaah - subhaan wa ta'aala - and make it a part of that "mind" which you seem so eager to inquire about.
[quote]
Why do you think the Qur'an invites you to ponder on the verses?? Why doesn't it say.. "Dont try this at home.. Qur'an is difficult.. learn from the Companions"..
[/quote]
Again, my "gullibility" excites you. Yes, and for sure, we must reflect and ponder of the verses of the Qur'aan, and there are great signs for men of understanding. No doubt the signs are there in the alternation of the night and day, the course of the planets rotating around the sun in harmony, the mountains as stakes in the earth, the stars lighting up the night sky and guiding the travellers etc etc But these are signs as obvious even to the non-Muslims. Regarding matters pertaining to sharee'ah, such as polygamy and prayer etc, then we must turn to the scholars of Islaam to understand them. For example, how would you know the method of prayer, if you did not turn to their understanding, which comes from the Companions? How many units do you pray for each prayer? What do you recite in it? what nullifies the prayer? What are the faraa'idh and arkaan of the prayer? What are the conditions of prayer? etc etc.
[quote]
Have you reflected Hasnain?? ever?? or are you content being a lemming?
[/quote]
Yes Alhamdulillaah, i have reflected. A "lemming" huh? Hmm ... i dunno! Mind you, it does sound kinda cute! Whatever excites you PakistaniAbroad, whatever keeps you on your toes!
[quote]
because I have a head on my shoulder which I choose to use.
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We are all gifted with heads on our shoulders, Alhamdulillaah. But only the wise know how to truly use it. Standing on it does quicken the rush of blood to the head, but it does no favours in increasing ones understanding of Allaah's beautiful Deen.
[quote]
Originally posted by pakistaniAbroad:
I recite the Qur'an. I received the order from within the Qur'an to do that.
[/quote]
Is this the way you would teach someone the prayer? We all recite the Qur'aan in prayer. Tell me about your actions.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
errors??? hah.. who said that YOU are praying the 'right' way?? There we go with the Mullah righteous brigade; starting the inquisition.. "correcting" everyone's prayers..
What makes u so sure your method is right or it's being accepted?? spare me your 'expert' opinions on my prayer
[/quote]
Then please, tell me how to pray. Correct my mistakes. If you cannot correct my mistakes in prayer or advise me on how to perform it, i do not see how you can even take a breath toward debating on matters regarding sharee'ah!
So now, i repeat the question again:
Is your understanding of Allaah's Deen then better than the understanding of the Prophet - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his Companions. Or are you upon a religion better than that which Muhammad - salallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam - came with?
A simple "yes" or "no" would do. But if you cannot even acknowledge the fact that their understanding is far better than yours or mine or anyone elses, then you will never understand the truth even if you reach it.
But then again, you don't even believe the Qur'aan is authentic:
[quote]
Orignally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Also, this particular surah is considered to be amongh the ones revealed in the final stages of revelation, however that information itself is from similar narrations so treat it with a bag of salt.
[/quote]
And then you have the audacity to say that you have an allegiance to the Book of Allaah!?
I have nothing more to say to you, that i'm sure Allaah - subhaan wa ta'aala - will not say to you on the Day of Judgement.
You truly are the "Devil's advocate".
Itakillaah wallaahu yahdeek.
Allahuma Kharrib 'aduwwaka wa 'aduww-al-Islaam allathee aduwwanaa, wa shaduhan laa illaaha illa ant fa subhaanaka wa biHamdik.
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
I'm closing this thread. The point has been made, and there's not much more to say.
Sentinel.