- What is an Imam?
- Who appoints them?
- Are they Imam by birth?
- Proof of Imam in Quran?
- Are there seven or 12 Imams?
- What is the differenc b/w Imam concept in asna-ashri and Islamili shias?
- How the 8th Imam got demoted and why?
- What is the status of Imam in Shiaism?
- Do they believe that Imam nauzobillah can be equal to Prophets?
- Name, ranks, significance and the contribution to Islam of each Imam?
- Who is the last Imam and what is the proof of his existence and his brith?
- Is Agha Khan a real Imam? Does he belong to Imam Ismail R.A?
Explain question 7 please. Demoted??
yeah what exactly do you mean by Queston # 7? can you please emphasize
..and what exactly are you trying to accomplish here smothie?Is it really a smart idea to answer ppl like you? who has nothing to contribute but to spread nuisance around here
Folks.
If you want to answer, fine. If you don't want to answer, fine.
Please don't resort to name-calling or insults. Those will be removed. If you have nothing to contribute, just don't.
Shukria.
salam
very good question......as far as question 7 is concerned it is about agakhanis ..ithna ashri shias dont have any thing to do with him.....................may be this clears things up........now what about the other 6 questions............
salam
By question 7 I mean the Imam whom Aghakhani believe was the actual Imam but asna-ashri say was demoted and his younger brother was appointed as Imam instead. Or vice versa....I couldn't find the reference may be you guys can clear this up. I read it a long ago. I will try to find that book. But please come forward if you know about it. Thanks.
And please answer the other questions as well. ik hi question per objection karke ruk gaye ?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
1. What is an Imam?
2. Who appoints them?
3. Are they Imam by birth?
4. Proof of Imam in Quran?
5. Are there seven or 12 Imams?
6. What is the differenc b/w Imam concept in asna-ashri and Islamili shias?
7. How the 8th Imam got demoted and why?
8. What is the status of Imam in Shiaism?
9. Do they believe that Imam nauzobillah can be equal to Prophets?
10. Name, ranks, significance and the contribution to Islam of each Imam?
11. Who is the last Imam and what is the proof of his existence and his brith?
12. Is Agha Khan a real Imam? Does he belong to Imam Ismail R.A?
[/QUOTE]
My answers are based on the Ithna Asheria/Jaferia Shia faith - the mainstream Shias.
Imams unlike Prophets do not come with a new code or book of religion because the Last Prophet was Hazrat Mohammad (SAW). Imams have complete knowledge of Deen-i-Mohammadi, i.e. Islam. They are successors of the Prophet and exist for the guidance of Mankind, after the Last Prophet.
They are appointed and chosen by God Almighty.
Yes.
This is the crux of our argument therefore I'll come back to it later inshallah.
12 Imams, as stated by the Prophet.
Ismailis are an off-shoot of the main Twelver Shias, but their "link" broke off at the 7th Imam. Ismail was the elder son of Imam Jafer As Sadiq but died during the Imam's lifetime. We, Twelvers don't believe a dead person can be initiated as a Leader or Guide, in other words an Imam. Therefore Imam Musa Al-Kazim became the Imam after the passing away of Imam Jafer Sadiq.
I think thats an Agha Khani/Ismaili view. I haven't heard it before. Post their views here and we might be able to discuss it.
Status is as a guide, leader of faith, as stated by God.
The Imam isn't a Prophet if thats what you meant. We do however believe that the Prophet was an Imam, as was Abraham, as stated in the Quran. There is some difference between the ranks of Nabuwwat, Risalat and Imamat, again as highlighted in the Quran. The 12 Imams are all under the command of the Prophet (pbuh). The Prophet is their Imam.
Ali ibn Abu Talib
Hassan Ibn Ali
Hussain Ibn Ali
Ali Zainul Abideen ibn Hussain
Mohammad Al Baqir ibn Zainul Abideen
Jafer As Sadiq ibn Mohmmad Baqir
Musa Al Kazim ibn Jafer Sadiq
Ali Al Raza ibn Musa Kazim
Mohammad At Taqi ibn Ali Raza
Ali an Naqi ibn Mohammad Taqi
Hasan Al Askeri ibn Ali Naqi
Mohammad ibn Hasan Askeri. (pbut)
Ranks and significance is of being Imam al muslimeen. If you recognise some names as being prominent in Islamic History, you can guage their contributions and significance for yourself. I will try to post some details inshallah. From the 7th Imam onwards, except the Last Imam all lived comparitively short lives and during the time of their Imammate and were kept under strong vigil or imprisoned for lengthy times by Abbaside Caliphs.
Last Imam is Mohammad Ibn Hasan, also known with the titles of Mahdi, Muntazar, Qaim etc. His proof of existence and birth is the same as the proof for all others. Again, since this is a lengthy matter of discussion, I will try and include it at some later date when I have more time.
Was this question to complete the set of "12" ;) :D
I think you should ask the Agha Khanis, I don't really know much about it. However I do think both Ismailis and Agha Khanis have had in excess or round about 100 "Imams" by now.
Just some additional information, Zaidi Shias, mostly found in Yemen I think are known as the Four Imamiyyas - their link breaks off at the 4th Imam. However their beliefs and Fiqh is more closely related to the Hanafi Fiqh.
I hope that answers a little of your questions. I thinks its better if you read up on the concept of Imamate in Shia ideology (do a quick search)and then if you have specific questions, post them here otherwise the discussion will be too lengthy.
thanks brother smoothguy for opening up this thread..this thread will provide information about Imamat to everyone..i am sure you opened this thread to find out more about Imamat and hopefully with clear and clean heart
thanks rhia sis..you are very Knowledgeable..Allah will reward you for this
I am sorry I forgot to add the cruical difference between the Ismailis and Jaferis with respect to the concept of Imamate, the 6th question. For the Ismailis after the 6th Imam, the sucession has always been heriditary that is the "imamate" goes to the eldest son and I believe it is the same for Agha Khanis too so in that sense it is more Monarchist, much like the Omayya, Abbasid Caliphates. Jafari/Twelver Shias don't attach significance to the hereditary notion of Imamate. For us the Imams are Imams because they are chosen by the Almighty and not because of a father-son relationship, although all 12 Imams do happen to be direct descendents (you couldn't find a more direct relationship) of the Prophet (pbuh) through Lady Fatima and Imam Ali. It is from one of these same 11 descendents that Sayyads come from.
How would one know in the presence of 3 brothers who is the Imam? I mean realisticly can't two brothers be Imam like Hasan and Hussain R.A?
With this theory in mind both Ismail and Musa Kazim can be Imam at the same time?
It raises another question...can there be more than one Imam at one time? Like Ali, Hasan and Hussain were Imams at the same time. So had the full charactersitcs of Imam at any given time. I will assume that Ali R.A had the full authority in his life, and after his shahada Hassan tookover and then Hussain and so on, eventhough they were alive in each others time. Clear this to me please. As I have read some charactersitcs of Imams which cannot be shared between two persons.
Did Ismail say that my brother is Imam and not me?
i just dont want to argue with shia brothers any more but..........some thing comes up that need sto be explained........
1- accordind to shias imam ali and all the imam were not brave enogh to fight for their right so they most of time performed taqiyaah only exception being the 2 wars (in which sunni also belive hadrat ali was right and hadrat muawiyah had an ijtihadi fault......dont start the discussion just clerin things)
in a book khomeni writes..........book named ALHAKOMAT ISLAMIA........page 52........."our aaima has a place in isam where even no nabi mursal can reach"
diffrens arose over the nomination of 8 imams............
rhia u named ur last imam
"11. Last Imam is Mohammad Ibn Hasan, also known with the titles of Mahdi, Muntazar, Qaim etc. His proof of existence and birth is the same as the proof for all others. Again, since this is a lengthy matter of discussion, I will try and include it at some later date when I have more time. "
asool e kafi has a separate bab as BABUL NAHI ANIL ISM..........it has one qoute of imam sadiq as"in sahib zada (12 imam)ka jo nam lay ga kafir ho jaya ga.........?
salam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
How would one know in the presence of 3 brothers who is the Imam? I mean realisticly can't two brothers be Imam like Hasan and Hussain R.A?
With this theory in mind both Ismail and Musa Kazim can be Imam at the same time?
It raises another question...can there be more than one Imam at one time? Like Ali, Hasan and Hussain were Imams at the same time. So had the full charactersitcs of Imam at any given time. I will assume that Ali R.A had the full authority in his life, and after his shahada Hassan tookover and then Hussain and so on, eventhough they were alive in each others time. Clear this to me please. As I have read some charactersitcs of Imams which cannot be shared between two persons.
Did Ismail say that my brother is Imam and not me?
[/QUOTE]
Smooth guy because we believe Imams are Imams from birth, this leads to the above question, how do we know who is the Imamul waqt, the Imam of the time? Historically and traditionally, each Imam of the Time introduced his successor to the people so that people weren't confused about who the next Imam was. It was a divine duty to do so. If like in the case of Imam ALi Hassan and Hussain all Imams were present, then yes the authority and leadership of Imamate belonged to Hazrat Ali. He appointed and would have made it known during his lifetime that Imam Hassan was his successor. Similarly this tradition of announcing the successor to leadership (as sanctioned by God) was carried out by all Imams. About Hazrat Ismail, he passed away DURING the lifetime of Imam Jafar. Ismailis, believeing in the heriditary nature of Imamate took Ismail to be the Imam, after the death of Imam Jafar, were we believe the Imam as appointed the sucessor to leadership by Imam Jafar was Imam Musa al-Kazim. This is backed up by the many narrations.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
i just dont want to argue with shia brothers any more but..........some thing comes up that need sto be explained........
1- accordind to shias imam ali and all the imam were not brave enogh to fight for their right so they most of time performed taqiyaah only exception being the 2 wars (in which sunni also belive hadrat ali was right and hadrat muawiyah had an ijtihadi fault......dont start the discussion just clerin things)
in a book khomeni writes..........book named ALHAKOMAT ISLAMIA........page 52........."our aaima has a place in isam where even no nabi mursal can reach"
diffrens arose over the nomination of 8 imams............
rhia u named ur last imam
"11. Last Imam is Mohammad Ibn Hasan, also known with the titles of Mahdi, Muntazar, Qaim etc. His proof of existence and birth is the same as the proof for all others. Again, since this is a lengthy matter of discussion, I will try and include it at some later date when I have more time. "
asool e kafi has a separate bab as BABUL NAHI ANIL ISM..........it has one qoute of imam sadiq as"in sahib zada (12 imam)ka jo nam lay ga kafir ho jaya ga.........?
salam
[/QUOTE]
Baoji you seem obsessed with the word Taqiyya for some reason. Here's an idea, how about you start reading some objective non-sunni and non-shia book about Islamic History. Find out in the context of history under what dire circumstances it was practised by some people and then maybe you could gain some understanding of what it was and what it isn't, hopefully dispelling some myths along the way.
As to the naming of the 12th Imam, again at the time it was forbidden to take the actual name of the Imam, of whom the Prophet said "His name will be my name, and his Kuniya (Title) will be my kuniya" and he was referred to only by his other titles, some of which I've already mentioned. This is because the condition at that time was such that the Caliphs at that time knowing of the musallama narrations about his birth etc felt his existence was a threat and wished to remove that threat. They imprisoned his father the 11th Imam for a good part of his short life, which ended when they poisoned him and also kept his mother under strict watch. So it was strictly disliked to mention or reveal the 12th Imam's identity. Only a few close and prominent companions of the 11th Imam knew the real identity of the 12th Imam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Baoji you seem obsessed with the word Taqiyya for some reason. Here's an idea, how about you start reading some objective non-sunni and non-shia book about Islamic History. Find out in the context of history under what dire circumstances it was practised by some people and then maybe you could gain some understanding of what it was and what it isn't, hopefully dispelling some myths along the way.
As to the naming of the 12th Imam, again at the time it was forbidden to take the actual name of the Imam, of whom the Prophet said "His name will be my name, and his Kuniya (Title) will be my kuniya" and he was referred to only by his other titles, some of which I've already mentioned. This is because the condition at that time was such that the Caliphs at that time knowing of the musallama narrations about his birth etc felt his existence was a threat and wished to remove that threat. They imprisoned his father the 11th Imam for a good part of his short life, which ended when they poisoned him and also kept his mother under strict watch. So it was strictly disliked to mention or reveal the 12th Imam's identity. Only a few close and prominent companions of the 11th Imam knew the real identity of the 12th Imam.
[/QUOTE]
what about my other refrences........what r thier justifications ...?