The topic of the thread, as I understood it, was to discuss Urdu language and what can be done to ensure it is kept alive in our lives.
Whether Arabic is the language of jannah or humans is basically a moot point. The decision to adopt Urdu as the official language of Pakistan was taken after considerable thought. Its not done to spite Arabic or to put it down. Arabic is its own language, and urdu had its own advantages. Urdu was developed in Indo-Pak subcontinent as an amalgamation of several languages. Its something in-house. Many people in all parts of Indo-Pak can idenitfy, speak, understand or atleast comprehend Urdu language. That was the reason why it was selected. To forge unity. It is not to isolate and destroy local languages and it was not something alien either. Imposing something like Arabic, at that time would have been counter-productive. People don't just go and learn a new language because the govt issued a notification. These are part of our lives. It takes a long time to spread a language.
Having said that, as I mentioned before, there is a lot we can all do, if we want, to ensure our national language retains a place in our lives.
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*Originally posted by punjab da sher: *
What is required of every muslim is to be able to read the surah "al-fatihah" and some other passages of the Qur'an in Arabic to enable him to offer his prayers. Anyway argue all you want whats done is done so its not gonna happen fobio..
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More than 70% of Pakistan’s population is illiterate. Most of us do know atleast, how to read Quran. So we know the Arabic/Urdu/Persian alphabet.
Now come to English. How do you plan on teaching the 100 million PAkistanis to learn English for advancing in technology.
I will give you Korea’s (South) example. They made language translation centres where all the latest books and journals in any language of the world would be translated and distributed across Korea.
Instead of making the whole nation pass through the nightmare of learning a language which is so foreign and whose alphabet and pronounciation is no where near our language, why not set up a translation bureau. They can take up the task of translating the knowledge not only from English but also from German (technologically advanced), Japan (technologically advanced), France, …
Even China whose growth rate is touching 9 % uses Chinese everywhere. With a foreign language you can only confuse a nation.
your posts are enlightening as always, i know that, dont take everything so damn literal, it is the bare minimum doesnt mean its ok, anyway this is going off topic so I’m done
Well ofcourse now its not possible to implement Arabic. Maybe in 1947 it would have been. Arabic would have forged unity amongst Muslims more than any other language. Bengalis had a problem with Urdu and so..... I am not saying that language was the only factor but it surely was one of the factors for Bangladesh.
Well now since our Constitution also says we should have Urdu, than why isn't it being fully implemented. I like English because it is one of the international languages (besides French and Arabic) but for many Pakistanis, it is hard to learn and speak.
Why not make everybody's life easy by implementing Urdu in offices and schools. English should also remain as a secondry language, but only to the extent of a second language.
I am sure implementation of Urdu will increase our country's growth rate as our own language will give way to innovation and development. It would also eradicate the class system in Pakistan.
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WRONG! Arabic is a human language. It is true that Allah(swt) has chosen it for his final messsage and the prophet (saw) used it in his sunnah, but that's as far as it goes. Arabic is a langage of human beings. Allah (swt) made us speak different languages*Originally posted by punjab da sher: *
What a cut and paste from muslimindia.com/answer/a13.htm Learn to think and analyze yourself.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Islamabad... I have one question for you. Have you ever studied in a school in Pakistan and taken Board exams for Matric or Intermediate after 1989?
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Yes I even studied till B.Sc in Pakistan. Actually I had very different experiances. 1-5 Urdu medium, 5-12 English (o & A), then English and Arabic medium of instructions and now English again in Masters but in U.S.
See, u did O and A-levels. From 1989 onwards, all Metric exams were conducted purely in Urdu language, including all science subjects. And from 1991, onwards, plans were to switch Intermediate too.
If you had tried to take the Matric and Intermediate exams at that point you would have understood the nightmare of taking complex scientific subjects in Urdu language. Try learning the literal urdu words for organic chemistry and Physics and then try to take a position on this issue. Its very easy to hypothise otherwise.
I am sure the idea behind it was noble but its a freaking nightmare for the students to grapple with. I was one batch BEFORE they switched to Urdu and my deepest sympathies were with those who had to read those Urdu books for Chemistry and Physics.
Its one thing to talk and communicate in Urdu. Its another to impose Urdu in areas where it is not natively designed to fit in. Doing so, will just mess it up for its users. Thats my personal view. You can go ahead and disagree.
I think it was hard because students were not used to it since the very beginning. If it were Urdu throughout than sciences in urdu would have become second nature.
In my case it was hard to read many subjects in pure arabic. It was a nightmare in the beginning, but as time went on it became very easy and natural. I am very fortunate to learn Arabic. You might disagree but this is what discussions are for..
Actually sciences were started by Muslims in Arabic. LAter they were translated to other languages-Latin and English , and developed.
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WRONG! Arabic is a human language. It is true that Allah(swt) has chosen it for his final messsage and the prophet (saw) used it in his sunnah, but that's as far as it goes. Arabic is a langage of human beings. Allah (swt) made us speak different languages*Originally posted by punjab da sher: *
What a cut and paste from muslimindia.com/answer/a13.htm Learn to think and analyze yourself.
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Oye buddha, I got it from a book "our Dialogue" which i have read numerous times and i knew it would be appropriate to this topic, particulariy the quran quote. A language to be intergrated into a society needs to be developed over many many generations, imposing arabic in 47 would have been a disaster. A pakistanis view of Islam, including yourself is worlds apart from what others see it..
Now, that you have disagreed, lets dissect your earlier arguments.
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*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Well ofcourse now its not possible to implement Arabic. Maybe in 1947 it would have been. Arabic would have forged unity amongst Muslims more than any other language. Bengalis had a problem with Urdu and so..... I am not saying that language was the only factor but it surely was one of the factors for Bangladesh.
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Thats water under the bridges. Move on.
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*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Well now since our Constitution also says we should have Urdu, than why isn't it being fully implemented. I like English because it is one of the international languages (besides French and Arabic) but for many Pakistanis, it is hard to learn and speak.
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Not all Pakistanis are made to learn English. Those who chose to, do so. Urdu is the official languages in all government-conducted school and college exams. It was done more than a decade ago. Its the official language in many offices too, with urdu typewriters and what not.
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*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Why not make everybody's life easy by implementing Urdu in offices and schools. English should also remain as a secondry language, but only to the extent of a second language.
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Read above. Its already there, in case you don't know.
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*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
I am sure implementation of Urdu will increase our country's growth rate as our own language will give way to innovation and development. It would also eradicate the class system in Pakistan.
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I completely disagree with both the assertions. Forcing Urdu in all scientific subjects will degrade the capabilities of our students when they decide to get higher education from other countries of the world, instead of improve their understanding.
Class system is not because of language. Most people in rural areas (where we have more problems of class system) speak their local languages still, and have little or no incentive to start speaking another language, whether its Urdu or English or Arabic. Thats a non-starter. People learn languages because they feel the need for those, not because someone thinks its good for them.
"yaye che duzkh shaba da, kho ze be khapal Pakhto zan sara Janat ta wram"
They say it is the language of hell, but I will take my Pakhto with me to heaven.
Who said that Arabic is the language of Jannah?
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*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
I agree with the scientist(oops mad)! Yes Arabic should have been adapted in the first place. The benefits of Arabic would have been enormous:
* Closeness with the Arab world
* Closeness to Quran and Hadith even more
* Arabic is liked by Allah and it is the language of Jannah.
......
I also think that Quaid made a mistake here.In case of Arabic I think no Muslim would have objected and maybe East Pakistan wouldn't have gone. Well jo Allah ko manzoor!
Well now either we should completely switch over to English or stick to one!
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I think it was recently announced in some newspaper that the best speakers of Urdu are Pakhtuns these days. Most of the Mullahs that we have in our province are Urdumongerers, though majority of the people can not call it their mother tongue in that area. With all due respect to Urdu, the people in that region have their own respected languages. Tanzeem-i-Islami (an organization of teachers affiliated with Jummath-i-Islami) discourage students (especially females) from speaking Pakhto in majority of the universities and colleges.
Now, what I don't understand is that why is NWFP the only place where this is being enforced on the people? When I was in Islamabad, I could hardly understand the people (especially in Rawal Pindi). It was even confusing at the airport. What they spoke was not Urdu, trust me.
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I doubt that the mullahs are much in favour of urdu poetry, plays, songs etc. Urdu will live as long as urdu speakers use it and grow it. I would not know a word of urdu had my mother not made sure that we learnt urdu.
This enforcement business is BS, who is enforcing urdu newspapers in UK, Canada and USA? supply is there to meet demand.
Maybe it has something to do with literacy rates among urdu speakers, but not sure.
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*Originally posted by Majestic: *
However, Punjabi is rough and not soo poetic.
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Kadi Bulley Shah noo thoo parhiya he nahi!
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*Originally posted by Majestic: *
the funny ting i saw was the "urdu dictionary board" in karachi. mean it really should be idara-e-lughat-e-urdu or idarah e urdu lughat
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That is pretty logical. e.g. a person doesn't know Urdu, atleast he'll be able to understand what it means.
As far as Urdu on the internet is concerned, I think its the fault of Government that they haven't implemented a standard for urdu for computers. In our university, Centre for Research in Urdu Language Processing is working hard to promote urdu making coming up with fonts for urdu, urdu OCR etc etc. We were expecting that the government would help a lot but its not the case. Most of the aid is coming from abroad.
Next version of Windows might contain proper Urdu support like that of Arabic. That will surely benefit Urdu a lot.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Now, that you have disagreed, lets dissect your earlier arguments.
Thats water under the bridges. Move on.
Not all Pakistanis are made to learn English. Those who chose to, do so. Urdu is the official languages in all government-conducted school and college exams. It was done more than a decade ago. Its the official language in many offices too, with urdu typewriters and what not.
Read above. Its already there, in case you don't know.
I completely disagree with both the assertions. Forcing Urdu in all scientific subjects will degrade the capabilities of our students when they decide to get higher education from other countries of the world, instead of improve their understanding.
Class system is not because of language. Most people in rural areas (where we have more problems of class system) speak their local languages still, and have little or no incentive to start speaking another language, whether its Urdu or English or Arabic. Thats a non-starter. People learn languages because they feel the need for those, not because someone thinks its good for them.
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I agree that nobody is forced to learn English. Indirectly we are! Since all the CSS jobs and other Government jobs require good English so naturally everybody tries to learn it. So in an indirect way you have to learn English. Those who come from an Urdu system are not able to compete because their standard is low. I have seen for myself that all the children of bureaucrats do not study in government schools, but prefer the British system (although i joined an English school for some other reasons). This is because they are the ruling elite whose children will continue to rule. For a good English education a lot of finances are required and good education cannot be afforded by a vast majority of people in Pakistan. I do not mean that Pakistani education system is pathetic, but in comparison, the British system is more superior. I have taught many students in metric and FSc, but what i observed was that the thinking faculty is not developed since "ratta" is the norm. So language does contribute to the class system.
So why can't we have one system? We have examples of many countries who have prospered in their own languages. Since we are a developing country and haven't performed really well in terms of economic and social terms, so what is the reason. I believe that the education system is amongst the many reasons. We cannot imagine the potential that will be unleashed when we have education in our own language. Since it will be easy for an ordinary person to understand everything as it is. They won't have to translate.
I have a question for you. What language do you dream in? Is it Urdu or English?
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*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
But what proportion of Pakistan's population in August 1947 had a good knowledge of urdu? It was mainly a language of the educated. Arabic, on the other hand, was very widely taught for religious reasons. It was also a much more widely spoken language in the world, and would have helped immensely to tie Pakistan to its west rather than to its east.
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Maddie
common or similar labguage does not always mean close ties. as far as percentage of people speaking arabic, i doubt it was higher than those who spoke urdu. It was the language used by many in daily life, whereas arabic was never used as a daily use language, thus its practicality was limited.
for proof, start stopping anyone in the 60 and up age group in Pakistan and see which language they speak.
people were taught arabic and farsi in schools, I know, but the language was limited to an academic pursuit to help understand arabic and persian texts.
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*Originally posted by KhanAbadosh: *
I think it was recently announced in some newspaper that the best speakers of Urdu are Pakhtuns these days. Most of the Mullahs that we have in our province are Urdumongerers, though majority of the people can not call it their mother tongue in that area. With all due respect to Urdu, the people in that region have their own respected languages. Tanzeem-i-Islami (an organization of teachers affiliated with Jummath-i-Islami) discourage students (especially females) from speaking Pakhto in majority of the universities and colleges.
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tanzeem i islami can do one thing, but tanzim i islami does not support urdu songs, plays, dramas either. anyways if tanzim i islami is affiliated with jamat e islami, and jamat e islami is part of MMA, which was elected by people of NWFP...maybe they should have voted for somoene else.
maybe peshawar TV stations should start supporting pushto by developing programs for its pushto audience more.
