The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@Ibn Sadique

^ Your infallible imams have tremendous love and loyalty for Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra) - Check your own books. Go ahead and deny it as usual that your imams got it wrong or the book is not well known or something to the effect.

Yeah you will finda couple of feeble traditions and fill forget the tons of those where Imams [as] rebuked them!

[quote]

Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (ra) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful *("as-Siddiq"). *

One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, "Yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may Allah make that person (who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection"

Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]

[/quote]

If this is Arbali's work then it shud be noted that Arbali is not considered a major Shi’a scholar. Kashf al-Ghumma is the only book that he authored - on the Ahl’ul bayt (as), in which he gathered the Sunni traditions that prove the righteousness of Ahl’ul bayt (as) and their virtues. And again, it contradicts to the no. of those refs where imams of Ahlulbayt [as] condemn their atrocities.

Btw, if wud have beem much better if u had gave some direct links from the online books of these refs (like you usually do).

[quote]

We have the following narration from Saheeh Bukhari - Obviously you will not agree to it.

Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas: When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out.'

[/quote]

Obviously! Btw you forgot to mention the hadiths where Ali [as] referred Abu Bakar as as “sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar !! (Bukhari & Muslim)

[Umm_Hafsa_Al-Ansaria]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

by the way dua zahra, you said hz mu'awiya's father was a kaafir.. well he wasnt, he was muslim so was his son hz. yazid

salaams

[QUOTE]

Obviously! Btw you forgot to mention the hadiths where Ali [as] referred Abu Bakar as as “sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar !! (Bukhari & Muslim)

[/QUOTE]

add the hadith, and quote the hadith number, waht volume etc. thanks

[armughal]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@BOY-NICE

who told you that Abu Bakar and umer were superioir than Ali [as]? Can any1 in this world be an inch equal to the knowledge Ali bin Abi Talib [as] had?(being the inheritor of the knowledge of Prophet [s]).

Those people kept saying:
Umar was often exacerbated if Ali was not available to solve an entangled problem. He often used to say: ‘Umar would have been ruined if Ali was not there’..

and whoever told u that the advisor of a person is better than the person himself???

the prophet (saw) had advisors too for some affairs…
did they become better than the prophet (Saw), ofcourse not…
similarly ali (ra) being an advisor to umar (ra) did not make him better than umar (ra)…

and abu bakar (ra) stands at a rank which is the greatest after the prophets (as)…
no one else can reach as high as he…

[Ibn_Sadique]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@BOY-NICE

Yeah you will finda couple of feeble traditions and fill forget the tons of those where Imams [as] rebuked them!

My friend Boy-Nice, Shia Ulemah have researched (analysed) their own books and have found that the narrations in the best of them, Al-Kafi - 67% unreliable Check it here: - http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/kulayni-howard.htm

So don’t worry much about the quality & authenticity of such statements attributed to the imams rebuking any of the Sahabah (raa).

@BOY-NICE

Obviously! Btw you forgot to mention the hadiths where Ali [as] referred Abu Bakar as as “sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar !! (Bukhari & Muslim)

You are very mistaken again my friend - There is a hadith where very same words are used by Hz. Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib for his nephew (Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra)). (Issue of Fadak)
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349 - find it here scroll down to No. 4390

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@Ibn Sadique

My friend Boy-Nice, Shia Ulemah have researched (analysed) their own books and have found that the narrations in the best of them, Al-Kafi - 67% unreliable Check it here: - http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/kulayni-howard.htm

So don’t worry much about the quality & authenticity of such statements attributed to the imams rebuking any of the Sahabah (raa).

And the hadith you quote has to be from the part of al-kafi deemed authentic :)? Anyhow, i was not talking about al-kafi alone, there are a great number of traditions in various shia books in condemnation of oppressors among sahabah.

You are very mistaken again my friend - There is a hadith where very same words are used by Hz. Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib for his nephew (Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra)). (Issue of Fadak)
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349 - find it here scroll down to No. 4390

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

As we had an understanding earleir when u said: “Obviously you will not agree to it”, so t doesnt really bother me what Ibn Abbas [ra] is attributed to have been said about Ali [as], my point was only about the words which Ali [as] deemed for Shaykhayn (as you were tried to post the hadith from ‘Sahih’ showing that Ali [as] cared about them) simple is that

[BOY-NICE]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@armughal

and whoever told u that the advisor of a person is better than the person himself???

the prophet (saw) had advisors too for some affairs…
did they become better than the prophet (Saw), ofcourse not…
similarly ali (ra) being an advisor to umar (ra) did not make him better than umar (ra)…

and abu bakar (ra) stands at a rank which is the greatest after the prophets (as)…
no one else can reach as high as he…

You will always cite examples/proof for your claims which are of low grade! Did i say anything about Ali [as] being advisor? There are far many merits of Ali bin Abi Talib [as] which exalts him from those who have been polythiest for the most of their lives. As for best man after Prophet [s] there is clearcut hadith from Prophet [s] that Ali [as] is best after Him and whoever denies it is Kaafir but i wont want to go in yet another detailed discussion which as usual not gonna give any result. As i said, personal traits are suffice to tell the status of an individual.

[AQ]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

FOR last 1000-1100 years [since the introduction of Shia sect in the ummah], no one of us could convince the other party [except for few individual cases at both ends] and we are debating this issue here as if we can change the others view point…

Masha Allah, we are so good in dawah… either we are fooling ourselves or just trying to insult one another by throwing references and our faiths to each others faces…

Can I ask my sunni brothers and sisters to consider the following?

We as followers of Sunnah wal Jamaah believe that ALL of the Sahaaba Kiraam Ridhwaanullah AliyehaY Ajma’een were the guided ones and from our perspective no one is better than other. Their are ranks among them though just like their are ranks among Prophets of Allah:swt:… Does that mean that we deny one prophet and accept other..?? I dun think so.. that will make us out of Islam rightaway even if we believe that Muhammad:saw: was the Last Prophet of Allah:swt:

Think about it… we as sunnies are not slandering any sahaabi:razi:… so take it easy… The problem is with those who are calling different sahaabaa as Munaafiq.. let them call.. will it make any difference in the eyes of Allah:swt:??? I guess NOT…

So, I would rather state my point and move on… If some one thinks of others as evil, let it be between Allah:swt: and them… If someone calls name to those sahaabaa, remind yourself with the guidance in Surah Al Hujaraat and say

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@Anwaar Qureshi

Think about it… we as sunnies are not slandering any sahaabi:razi:… so take it easy… The problem is with those who are calling different sahaabaa as Munaafiq.. let them call.. will it make any difference in the eyes of Allah:swt:??? I guess NOT…

So, I would rather state my point and move on… If some one thinks of others as evil, let it be between Allah:swt: and them… If someone calls name to those sahaabaa, remind yourself with the guidance in Surah Al Hujaraat and say

good point,

another thing i would like to add is that does the political struggle change the word of God in any way? Does it change what was revealed?

why worry so much about it, why cant we look forward instead of in distant past.

[Captain1]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

@Fraudz

why worry so much about it, why cant we look forward instead of in distant past.

how would that satisfy my ego "we were right"?

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: The sermon of Hz Ali(a.s) about 1st 3 caliphs

^ ji janab, samjha..
aur kaam naheen hai logon kay paas waisay?