Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
It would take a very poor example of a Muslim for his faith to be guided by non-Muslims…
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
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**All **scholars of any merit
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And they are? Qadiyani? Shia? British? What do they know about hadith?
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27465
Sciences of Hadith
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
i wanna know what are the basic principles of Hadith collection in those times. OK i pose a hypothetical question to take the discussion further.
In the sanads you see that the period of the Rawees coincide and they have been known to be pious people. OK. And then we believe on the Hadith sanad to be true. is it all or there is more than that?
Yaar MKF, no fight with anyone. Its just that Antumul has posed before as being someone very knowledgible about Science of Hadith and is always dissing others. I tried to communicate with him and see if there is anything of value he can enlighten with, you know it was a sincere effort of my part but I got my hand slapped for being nice and honest. I like discussions and like to learn but I cannot stand pompous and arrogant people. People like him who think they are superior to us and if you want to talk with him its like my way or the highway.
He infact replied to me with some criteria (about verifying the text of a hadith), which I don't know where he got them from. Then he wanted to know if I am a male oe female so he wouldn't feel bad when clobbering me in the discussion. On knowing I am a male he was happy so he wouldn't feel bad clobbering me. So I reply to him and after my first reply he comes back with all sorts of ???, how old are you (why I want to ascertain you can understand what I am talking about), are you a student of someone or self-taught (if self-taught I will not talk with you), and other petty stuff. Its a shame he couldn't answer to my reply and then deviated into all this arrogance and try to prove he is somehow superior to me and because of that I am not worthy ot discuss with.
I am a fair-minded person and do not believe in this protocol BS, especially when this comes from a muslim from whom someone is seeking knowledge. Its about time some told him "YOU ARE EXPOSED" ... which is his favorite line.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
This is my reply to him, if this is of any help from either of us:
ASA
Hope you enjoyed a blessed Eid. I am replying to your message about the matan of hadith:
· feebleness and inadequacy of the wordings. After continuous engagement in the reading of ahadeeth one can get acquainted to the eloquence in the true wordings of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. So that at one stage one can confidently be able to accept or reject a narration by merely hearing its words. For example if you have a long term friend, and someone narrates from him, you can know if that is possible that he said this or it sounds not of him.
I find this a very weak criteria. First of all the hadith scholars have never heard the prophet SAW or been in his company. So this criteria is really based on the majority of hadith they agree with or find similarity in. It cannot be verified that hadith are the exact words coming from the mouth of Prophet SAW, what can be ascertained is that the narrators are telling the essence or plot of the hadith truthfully but the wordings cannot be ascertained. You can find many ahadith about the same subject with different wording. This clearly indicates narrations are the words of the narrators however they may all talk about the same essence though.
*· sometimes the meaning of a forged narration contradict the basic laws of nature. For example in one fabricated hadeeth "Noah's alaihis salaamArk circuited the Ka'bah seven times and offered two rak'aahs of prayer close to the Maqam of Ibrahim alaihis salam." *
There are many ahadith which contradict basic laws of nature, which are in fact Sahih or Hasan. A lot of the judgement day ahadith i.e. Sun rising from the west.
*· it incites condemned desires of the mind, body and soul. For example, incites lowly passion like an alleged Hadith goes, "gazing a beautiful face sharpens eyesight." *
I can agree with this however please provide a reference for the hadith.
*· contrasts an obvious fact in the farthest extremes. For example, "There will not be born after a century anyone who will be of importance to God." *
Agreed though it seems to me the criteria are based on the hadith and the hadith is not befitting a pre-requisite criteria. It could be concisely put that the text of the hadith is totally absurd.
*· it goes against the basics of medical remedies. For example, "Aubergine (eggplant) is the cure from all diseases. *
Now this is curious though. Is the Arabic wrongly translated or correctly. The verse about honey in the Quran has been wrongly quoted and interpreted by many, who say honey has the cure for everything. However I agree with the basic point made here and again the criteria has been dervied from the text of the hadith and not the other way round.
*· doubts the notion of God's perfection. For example, "Allah created the horse and caused it to run until when he perspired, Allah created himself with his perspiration." *
Agreed.
*· the mere legitimacy of which cannot be assumed. For example, the alleged 'Hadith Al-Qudsi' (or the Almighty's speech - other than the Qur'aan), "A white cock is my friend and the friend of my friend is Gabriel alaihis salam." *
Legitimacy is the wrong word I think sensibility would be more appropriate.
*· where the narration goes in straight contrast with the Holy Qur'aan and a comprehensive explanation is impossible. For example, "An illegitimate child will not enter Paradise and nor will his progeny until seven generations." This fabrication contradicts the code of the Qur'aan "And no carrier will carry the burden of others." *
Agreed. This to me is the most important criteria. This could have resulted due to bible influence where God has warned to punish 3-4 generations of sinners.
**· contradicts a sound and reliable narration. For example, "When you narrate from unto me a Hadith which advocates the truth (in your understanding), then do so with immunity even though I would not have stated it. This counters the famous tradition, "Whoever narrates from me anything which he believes is false shall prepare for his abode in the Hell-fire."
**So a hadith that contradicts another hadith. What if both have a Sahih isnad?
*· it opposes a general law derived from accounts of Hadith. For example, "Whosoever names his child Muhammad, he and his child will both be in Paradise." and "I oblige upon myself not to let anyone with the name Ahmad or Muhammad enter Hell-fire." These fallacious narrations are in variance with the universal law that the final destination of an individual is not determined by his name nor family, rather the criteria is piety and good deeds. *
Actually this contradicts the Quran, hadith should never be a criteria in determining another hadith.
*· it clashes with historical accounts. For example, "The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam imposed the 'Jizyah' tax on the people of Khaibar with the advice of Sa'ad bin Mu'adh radiallahu anhu and the writing of Mu'awiyah bin Sufyan radiallahu anhu." This is a false narration because 'Jizyah' was not ordained by Allah until then; it only happened after the Expedition of Tabuk. Secondly, Sa'ad bin Mu'adh radiallahu anhu never witnessed the Fall of Khaibar since he had passed away long before in the Battle of the Trench. Similarly, Mu'awiyah radiallahu anhu had not yet embraced Islam. He only did long after Khaibar during the Prophet's sallallahu alaihi wa sallam conquest of Makkah. *
Definitely a strong criteria however how do you authenticate history?
*· a narrator narrates something in favor of his personal views and ideologies. For example, a Shiite narrates a Hadith glorifying the status of Sayyiduna Ali radiallahu anhu *
There are ahadith which might glorify the status of sahaba. How does it become false? Just because a Shia narrates it, it is no criteria to judge it false. Again references are needed.
· the narrative comprises of an extraordinary event which, due to its astounding nature, should have been narrated with more importance and still it is only narrated from a person or two. This condition nullifies the credit of the narrative of 'Ghadeer Khum' (a pond near Makkah near which the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, upon returning from his Pilgrimage, allegedly held the hands of Sayyiduna Ali radiallahu anhu and appointed him as his successor in an overwhelming presence of his Companions) which advocates of the Shiite sect are too fond to preach.
Yes I agree with this and this is a major sticking point for Sunni Shia unity. The word Mawla has been taken in many a context because of this incident. What would help is knowing how many of the famous narrators of ahadith were present at this incident.
These were just a few of the conditions. However, they are not to be taken a certified criteria to test the authenticity of a text but more as helping factors towards a cause. Nevertheless, utmost preference will be given to what was mentioned while explaining the first condition i.e. contentment of a devoted scholar of the science upon the veracity of a text. Many a time we find a Hadith is rejected by a scholar by merely purporting phrases like 'There is darkness in this narration' or 'Its text seems gloomy' or 'The conscience rejects it' or 'The heart is not content on it' etc. WAllahu Alam ASAK
A lot of the criteria you have mentioned here are really derived on the absurdity of the content of the hadith itself. They were developed as hadith were encountered not due to fore thought except for a select few as far as I can tell. So now do you not reject a select few hadith even from the Sahih collections whose content is quite absurd or even in other Saha Sitta books of hadith.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
Well till such time that Muslims get scientifically educated enough to be able to correctly examine their own history, it's best to rely on experts in the field of study, who unfortunately all happen to be non-Muslims.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
PA
Who are those non-muslims, i am curious.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
ALL historians of any merit.. ALL archaeologists, ALL scientists who can help date parchments/scripts/stones etc etc.
Scan the list of Nobel Laureates.. do u see Muslims in other than the handful in Peace/Literature categories?
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
Scan the list of Nobel Laureates.. do u see Muslims in other than the handful in Peace/Literature categories?
PA, please man you have long lost this debate of denying Hadiath. You are always asked simple questions like what about praying 5 times ? proper way of doing Hajj ? Rozza ? Zakkat ? ... whenever you are asked these questions you either disappear or utter something really out of the context... So please spare us your bogus talk...
All historians of any merit ? Scientist ? Some time you really appear to be a literate-Jahill.
My history is not so great but i know for a fact one of the greatest and pioneer's of history were Muslims...
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
For 1400 years people have been following the EXAMPLE of the last prophet of God and now today we got these Qadiyanis and 19th century intellectual terrorists supported by their imperial masters to tell us that those people were wrong and muslims of today should just follow quran which they KNOW most muslims don't understand nor speak arabic as their first language.
These cults have simple game in mind:
Once the Prophet Mohammad and his sahaba and their example is OUT of the way, then they can easily manipulate simple minded and poor muslims by saying "this in quran refers to our prophet and that in quran refers to our imam...." so on and so forth!
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
These cults have simple game in mind:
Once the Prophet Mohammad and his sahaba and their example is OUT of the way, then they can easily manipulate simple minded and poor muslims by saying "this in quran refers to our prophet and that in quran refers to our imam...." so on and so forth!
Can we hear something related to the title of the thread? Please also refrain from naming people terrorists and Qadiyanis when they ask questions about hadith or use their intellect to determine right from wrong. Not everyone who questions the meaning of a hadith is rejecting hadith as mere conjecture.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
You will be in sad state of shock once you realise how many people reject hadiath out right on this board.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
And it is also wise to point out that those who reject hadiths are mostly QADIYANIS, PERVAIZIS… so why they reject becomes more obvious for other people as the motive is clear: To mislead and confuse Muslims and then introduce their 19th century dogma as the “new” way, their “islam,” as they so enthusiastically like to call it.
USRes, a lot has been said on the topic. I gave a link back to another thread few days back… apparently the Qadiyanis abandoned it when real questions were asked.:halo:
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
Here is a list of the criteria for qualifying a hadith as Sahih:
a) No contradictions wth Quran or other well established Sahih hadith.
b) Continuity of the chain of narrators.
c) No Ellah (defects). And there has been many works on the “Defects of hadith” by prominent scholars like At-Termizhi and Ad-Daraqutani.
d) And every narrator in the chain had to be Adil (Righteous), Truthful and Dabit (of strong memory).
This is the criteria i have extracted from the website http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27465 given by a fellow
i feel it has some loopholes,
No contradictions with Quran-perfect
No contradictions with other Sahih Hadith-Where to start, i mean if all other criterias are OK and two Shahih Hadiths contradict each other, which one to believe. May the previous one was faulty and we may reject a genuine on faulty
what do we mean by continuity of chain of narrators? They belong to same era , is it enough to believe on something? They may never have met or may have met but may never have talked about that issue. This is not a very rigorous criteria
para (d) can be established with a rigorous study of personalities i.e. Isma-ul-rijjal
I feel that there must be more than what meets the eye. continuity must have something more as well. Otherwise there had been many unidentified munafqeens as well and they could have easily narrated something on behalf of someone.
any comments?
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
PA!
You said:
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Well till such time that Muslims get scientifically educated enough to be able to correctly examine their own history, it's best to rely on experts in the field of study, who unfortunately all happen to be non-Muslims.
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Tell me who are those non-muslims taht are expert in Islamic theology or history that are better tahn Muslims?
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
I am in no sad state of shock yet I do see that the way they are dealt with is stereotypical. Just like they reject ahadith outright many among us just label them Pervaizi or Qadiyani. Its not as if we are any better in how we handle them.
I do not know how far you have discussed but you can't convince anyone of anything unless you hear their point of view and less ridiculing them or putting pre-conditions on what they want to say. If you cannot help them they do not alienate them further.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
There is nothing wise when you push people away from the truth about Allah SWT and his messenger SAW. It is wiser to leave them be and confront them when there is a chance of getting rid of them. Until then you should not ridicule them but try and convince them and persevere with patience.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
exactly
i second your opinion USR
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
Tell me who are those non-muslims taht are expert in Islamic theology or history that are better tahn Muslims?
It's not about theologians or historians.. it's about muslims mired in their mutually consensual chronology while being conspicuously absent from Archaeological, dendrochronological, paleographical sciences altogether. Rather than me naming all those names.. u can go ahead and try and find any prominent muslim names in these fields and report back if you succeed.
Re: The Science of Ahadith Collection-Fool proof or error prone?
come to the original dialogue point gentlemen and ladies.
What about the criteria pasted above? Is it rigorous enough to discard all false attributions?