So , one of the things that is under hot discussion at the legislation level is for the Teachers in the UK to be paid according to their effectiveness in attaining best test results.
What do you think? fair enough? will that raise the quality of teaching in the schools? or will it bring a lot of dismay to the teaching staff? and impact the profession negatively?
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
Not sure test results ought to be the sole metric. Or even a significant metric. Test results depend on the affluence of the kids in that class. Schools with kids who come from families that r stable get a leg up.
Teaching effectiveness measurement should take into account the challenges faced by the kids attending the class.
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
What kind of challenges , Southie?
I do believe that the test results significantly reflect the teaching quality of a school. No matter what background the kids come from, once they are in a class , all that matters is results and well rounded academics, which includes sports and arts etc ..
What say?
CB
If you are comparing two teachers and teacherA has his students at an avg B+ grade, teacher B from another school has students at an avg C+ grade.
In a direct comparison teacher A is a better teacher.
Then if you start factoring that these students were all A and B students prior to coming to teacher A clas, all native English speakers, stable family and home environment and involved parents.
Teacher B had students who had ads and Fs prior to getting to him. He had to do a lot of remedial work to get them up to speed. Large representation of non native English speakers, struggling with language and culture change, others with uninvolved single parents or families who are not serious about education so kids don't study at home.
Higher number of children with learning difficulties etc.
With that background info, it would appear that teacher B is a better teacher.
That is a challenge that test scores don't account for.
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
Exactly.
To add, it is not that single parent families do not emphasize education. Many times, certain population segments have a high pct of males aged 19 to 35 in jail. Due to laws that are targeted towards criminalizing certain activities. Resulting in broken families.
The minimum wage is a joke. A single parent earning minimum wage simply cannot support a family. Do u seriously think kids from those families play on a level playing field?
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
Southie, good point. My post did look like I was stereotyping. I was not saying all single parents are uninvolved, but was specifically pointing towards uninvolved single parents. just like all immigrant kids dont have challenges, or all non native english speakers dont have issues. Its just an incomplete inventory of the types of factors that make learning tougher for kids who face them.
but we are on the same page
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
I see where you guys are coming from and it makes huge sense to me. The question being, most of the teachers arent really involved in the background of the kids. or are they?
now when I am looking for best schooling options for my kid, I am looking at the league tables across my region and trying to pick schools according to their performance. As a parent, its not concerning me what quality of students went to which school. I am looking at the results and thinking that the School at the top of the league tables , is the best one , has the best teachers , the best students etc ..
If you were to ask me as a parent, I would say , leading schools teachers should be paid well for their effort. That is where my concern comes through. how many parents would keep the factors you guys mentioned in mind when they look at the quality of teachers and their teaching ability rather then the end results on the local and national level.
know what i mean?
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
So , one of the things that is under hot discussion at the legislation level is for the Teachers in the UK to be paid according to their effectiveness in attaining best test results. ...
In addition to the points above, this is not a good idea also because the teachers would then be concerned about teaching the kids how to get 'better test results' or game the testing system instead of whether the kids actually learn anything.
The 'change in results' over longer periods of time might be a better indication of effectiveness of teaching since there are several factors (quality of students coming into the school, school facilities, administration, etc. ) that go into determining the 'level' of results obtained by the students of a school. Other things being constant, if a teacher is able to generate interest in students enough to improve average grades over a* long term*, then you might expect to give the teacher promotion/bonus/salary increments etc. This should, however, not be a major determining factor for the salaries.
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
.....If you were to ask me as a parent, I would say , leading schools teachers should be paid well for their effort. ...
As a general observation, teachers' motivation is derived largely from how they are 'enabled' by the environment (school admin and students' behavior, particularly) to do their job. Generally, the difference between 'good teachers' and 'bad teachers' stems from how 'happy' they are in the profession. Better schools are better because they take care of the teachers. Put a great teacher to work with a terrible principal and you'd see him/her either demoralized or leave the school.
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
I agree with the above post Kaka, I have seen that happen too. I guess at the end of the day it really is a team spirit, a school is not run by an individual teacher , every member of the team contributes in one way or the other to provide that perfect growth environment for the kids.
CB if it becomes a choice of school for your child of course you want the best option as in best school based on student performance.
You then have to factor proximity. If it's a private school then I suppose as long as you can get the kid there, there is little issue. In US, for public schools (not same definition as public in UK) you have to be living in that school district, and since there are multiple schools in a school district, you need to be living in the area served by that particular school.
So, real estate availability and prices come into picture as well.
schools in affluent school districts tend to get more resources compared to schools in less affluent school districts too. The approach has issues because I think the avg expenditure per student should be the same in a state education system but it's not. So not only do you have students struggling with types of challenges I noted earlier but their schools and teachers have less resources. There is no level playing field.
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
I think salary, while important, is only one factor. Finland does it best IMO, with the sheer rigor required of its teachers attracting the best and the brightest. Finnish students rank amongst the best in the world, with a unique, “pulling” form of encouraging students. Other countries at the top, like South Korea, use the traditional “pushing” form of encouragement, of pressuring students into studying. Finland really should be admired for what they’ve done.
Excerpt:
*Becoming a teacher in Finland is as competitive as getting into an Ivy League school, and Finland offers no other route into the profession. So, there is no Teach for Finland. To teach in Finland requires a five-year master’s degree in education. Admission to a teacher preparation program includes a national entrance exam and a personal interview. Only one of every 10 applicants is accepted into a teacher preparation program in Finland; competition to become a primary school teacher is even tougher, with 1,789 applicants for only 120 spots, for example, at the University of Helsinki in 2011-12. Only eight universities offer teacher preparation programs in Finland, which allows the country to ensure consistency from program to program. Contrast that with Minnesota which has about the same population as Finland (5.2 million) but about 30 colleges that offer teacher preparation programs.
*
Sahlberg speculates that the Finns can attract the top quintile of all high school graduates to teaching because the rigors of the master’s degree, which includes a thesis with substantial scholarly requirements, makes the program challenging enough to appeal to the top students.
*A bonus is that earning a master’s degree costs the student nothing since Finland funds education from preschool through graduate school.
*
Source: Finland’s Secret Sauce: Its Teachers | LFA: Join The Conversation - Public School Insights
Additional reading: https://edpolicy.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/secret-finland’s-success-educating-teachers.pdf
Re: The salary for the teachers ..
I see where you guys are coming from and it makes huge sense to me. The question being, most of the teachers arent really involved in the background of the kids. or are they?
now when I am looking for best schooling options for my kid, I am looking at the league tables across my region and trying to pick schools according to their performance. As a parent, its not concerning me what quality of students went to which school. I am looking at the results and thinking that the School at the top of the league tables , is the best one , has the best teachers , the best students etc ..
If you were to ask me as a parent, I would say , leading schools teachers should be paid well for their effort. That is where my concern comes through. how many parents would keep the factors you guys mentioned in mind when they look at the quality of teachers and their teaching ability rather then the end results on the local and national level.
know what i mean?
CB. The question in OP was how should the salary be determined. In this post, you described the criteria you use to find the best school for your kid. And then conclude the teachers from those schools deserve best salary.
I just beg to differ on the last part. There is no requirement that teachers of the most preferred schools be paid the highest. One should be able to separate what is best for ones child from which teacher deserves the best salary.
In fact, by giving the teachers of the school u prefer the highest salary, u just made the playing field even less level than it already was.
Citizens should clamor for increased funding for poorer schools. And possibly even extra resources compared to other schools to make up for the lower income levels.