Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Oh so Islamist must call for Jihad now eh? That is a precursor to defining Jihad? Good to know. Someone better inform all the academics and experts on the matter right away.
Shamraz what i am good at is using your own words against you. Considering the opinions on GS are so lopsided and illogical its easy to do. Considering I do it so regularly.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
So a nation that adopts an Islamist political ideology is guided by Islamic principles.
In drawing a parallel, is that similar to how US or several other Western countries are founded on Judeo-Christian principles?
That’s fine. But can a nation be an Islamist nation but NOT follow shariah law?
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Right & this is the diff between Islamist and him.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904491704576570670264116178.html
By MARC CHAMPION And MATT BRADLEY
CAIRO—The Muslim Brotherhood objected to statements by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan telling Egyptians not to fear building a secular state, in a rare clash that exposes the gap between the so-called Turkish model for building a Muslim democracy and what Islamists in the region believe when they invoke it.
For much of Mr. Erdogan’s two-day visit to Egypt this week, members of the Muslim Brotherhood made up much of the fan club that followed Mr. Erdogan around Cairo. They championed his tough stance toward Israel and his promotion of Muslim solidarity.
But the Brotherhood took exception to Mr. Erdogan’s comments on Egyptian television late Monday urging Egyptians not to fear a secular state.
Speaking on a popular Oprah-style talk show on Egypt’s Dream TV, Mr. Erdogan had said: “Do not be wary of secularism. I hope there will be a secular state in Egypt.”
The Turkish leader said secularism doesn’t mean a lack of religion, but creating respect for all religions and religious freedoms for individuals.
“Secularism does not mean that people are secular. For example, I am not secular, but I am the prime minister of a secular state,” said Mr. Erdogan, himself a former Islamist.
A founding principle of the formation of Mr. Erdogan’s AKP in 2001 was its acceptance of the secular nature of the Turkish state, and renunciation of any ambition to introduce Sharia law, or Islamic jurisprudence, into the constitution. That stance helped the AKP to dramatically widen its appeal beyond what previous overtly Islamic Turkish parties had enjoyed. Had Mr. Erdogan advocated nonsecular law in Egypt, that would likely have created political waves at home.
But Mr. Erdogan’s use of the term “secular” runs counter to Egyptian Islamists’ conception of Islamic-minded governance, said Essam El Erian, vice president of the Brotherhood’s newly formedpolitical party, Freedom and Justice.
Secularism has “a very bad perception among Egyptians,” said Mr. El Erian. “We have no need for this term.”
The criticism of other Brotherhood leaders went further, playing to popular Egyptian fears of foreign intrusion.
“It’s not allowed for any non-Egyptian to interfere in our constitution,” said Mahmoud Ghazlan, a spokesman for the Brotherhood. “If I was to advise the Turks I’d advise them to crop the secular article in their constitution, but I’m not allowed. It’s not my right.”
Since a nearly three-weekpopular uprising ousted Egypt’s secular-minded President Hosni Mubarak, the Arab world’s most-populous nation has emerged as a political petri dish for how Islamists can reconcile fervent religious adherence with democratic norms. The Brotherhood’s rejection of Mr. Erdogan’s counsel offers a rare hint as to the kind of political society Egypt’s powerful Islamists would like to see.
In seeking examples to emulate, Arab Islamists have often pointed to Turkey. Part of Mr. Erdogan’s broad popularity in the Middle East is based on the success his ruling Justice and Development Party has had in balancing the secular and more devout parts of the country’s population.
On Wednesday, Mr. Erdogan pledged to triple trade and investment with Egypt within four years, after earlier signing ambitious, if largely political, energy agreements.
Also on Wednesday, he met with the elderly pope of Egypt’s Coptic Christians, who make up more than 10% of Egypt’s population.
It is the paucity of strong examples of effective Islamist governance—rather than full agreement with the “Turkish model”—that best explains the Brotherhood’s stated affinity for Mr. Erdogan and his political perspective, said Shadi Hamid, an expert on the Brotherhood and the director of research at the Brookings Institution’s Saban Center for Middle East Policy in Doha, Qatar.
Egypt’s revolution thrust Islamists into a new political role. No longer cast as simply righteous leaders of the opposition to an authoritarian regime, the Brotherhood had to define a moderate political vision to ease concerns of more-secular Egyptians and Westerners. Turkey distinguished itself as an obvious example.
“They can refer to Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq and Turkey” as examples of Islamist leadership, Mr. Hamid said. “There’s only one choice that can work for them: Turkey. It’s kind of by default.”
Such moderation stands in stark contrast to the political goals the Brotherhood has already pursued in the brief period since Egypt’s revolution liberated them from autocratic rule.
The Brotherhood led a campaign to accept a set of provisional constitutional amendments in a nationwide referendum March.
Several Islamist groups implied that rejecting the amendments—which contained no reference to religion or secularism—could jeopardize Article 2 of Egypt’s extant constitution, which states that Sharia law is the source of all legislation in Egypt’s parliament.
Since then, the Brotherhood has fought hard against efforts by secular-minded politicians to impose a set of guidelines on the country’s still-unwritten constitution that might limit Islamists’ influence in drafting the document.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
So a nation that adopts an Islamist political ideology is guided by Islamic principles.
In drawing a parallel, is that similar to how US or several other Western countries are founded on Judeo-Christian principles?
That's fine. But can a nation be an Islamist nation but NOT follow shariah law?
You have the definition in front of you Sehrysh, do you think it is possible? Islamism is based off the teachings of Maududi and Al Banna the founding fathers behind what is now the Muslim Brotherhood and the Jamaat in South Asia. However both widely differ on practice and application. So sure it is absolutely possible because nothing is set in stone when it comes to Islam. We aren't the Church.
Shamraz you are welcome to believe whatever you want. Like I said before 10 years of his rule and most turks and academics have termed him an Islamist. AKP is termed an Islamist party by Turks. That has increased their popularity every damn election. I do not deny that Turkey is a secular state. I do not deny that he has made these comments. But to quote one of you guys, he is a smart politician who has blended nationalism with religion very well.
His comments on Islam still stand. So do his actions on Hijab, religious freedom of Muslims all over Europe.
The problem with you lot in the west is you define every term as how the US media defines it. Which as everybody knows is by far the weakest media when it comes to intellectual discourse and proper analysis.
Its interesting you, yazdi and Sehrysh all define Islamist to mean Taliban or Al Qaeda. When historically Islamism is a good 100 years old. It was started well before most Muslim states existed. Well done on taking a very narrow view of a very broad history.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Thanks for sharing the article Shamraz, excellent statement by Erdogan:
"Secularism does not mean that people are secular. For example, I am not secular, but I am the prime minister of a secular state," said Mr. Erdogan
Sums it up...
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Thanks for sharing the article Shamraz, excellent statement by Erdogan:
"Secularism does not mean that people are secular. For example, I am not secular, but I am the prime minister of a secular state," said Mr. Erdogan
Sums it up...
Going back to my original point that he is in fact an Islamist and that is why you would all have a fit.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
There you go making assumptions again 
Actually I don’t define Islamist to mean Taliban or Al Qaeda, but what I find in these online discussions is that the use, misuse and confusion on the use of terms makes discourse on topics to take place at cross purposes. There needs to be a common understanding of what is meant before all parties enter into a “conversation” about an issue.
I was hoping to better direct the discussion.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
I thought I would do so for a change :p I apologize for the assumption and the ridicule intended. You accept? :p
As for the topic and definition. If everybody was, logical, civil and moralistic in World or Pakistan Affairs, we would never have any problems. And I frankly would be unemployed and broke :D
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
And of course you being unemployed and not in the middle of a war zone is a bad thing, right?
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Absolutely. I need battle scars and emotional issues to pick up chicks. How am I gonna do that without being in the middle of a war zone?
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
To respond to your post would be to further derail the thread, and we wouldn't want that now would we?
So going back to the topic at hand - in an Islamist state, please describe the overlay or application of Islamic jurisprudence - is there space for ijtehad on the matter of what is prescribed and what is applied?
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Of course we would its like saying I take GS seriously.
And by whose standard are we looking at this Islamist state as?
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Shamraz you are welcome to believe whatever you want. Like I said before 10 years of his rule and most turks and academics have termed him an Islamist. AKP is termed an Islamist party by Turks. That has increased their popularity every damn election. I do not deny that Turkey is a secular state. I do not deny that he has made these comments. But to quote one of you guys, he is a smart politician who has blended nationalism with religion very well.
His comments on Islam still stand. So do his actions on Hijab, religious freedom of Muslims all over Europe.
The problem with you lot in the west is you define every term as how the US media defines it. Which as everybody knows is by far the weakest media when it comes to intellectual discourse and proper analysis.
Its interesting you, yazdi and Sehrysh all define Islamist to mean Taliban or Al Qaeda. When historically Islamism is a good 100 years old. It was started well before most Muslim states existed. Well done on taking a very narrow view of a very broad history.
Sorry, but Muslims do not = Islamists. Islamists are the people who use/misuse Islam for political or personal gains. Now, expalin to me how has Erdogan use or miuse Islam for his political power? If anything he has accepted secularism in his own country, and he working within its constitutional frameowkr.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Either he is a skilled politicians who can play everyone or perhaps the US put him up to this, but notice how Turkey deploying ABM shield to ostensibly target iran is not getting world press or even a whimper in the middle east! This would have been huge news if it weren't for the whole turkey championing the palestinean cause right now.
US wins by dislodging Iran from arab-israeli geopolitics with a NATO ally that is controllable, as I can't believe the turkish military would just sit there and let the politicians dictate terms to it. Like it or not, turkish military is like the paki military that runs the national security dialogue and it is like saying the military cleared Swat only because Zardari / parliament told them to do so. US have had links with islamists in the past and they might well be playing a game now.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Sorry, but Muslims do not = Islamists. Islamists are the people who use/misuse Islam for political or personal gains. Now, expalin to me how has Erdogan use or miuse Islam for his political power? If anything he has accepted secularism in his own country, and he working within its constitutional frameowkr.
Brilliant. So you definition is what 5 years old. I bet Al Banna and Muadudi don't count eh? 100 years of history and political discourse gets wiped away because Shamraz thinks the Fox news definition holds monopoly on Islamism. Well done there. Sherlock.
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio
Forget islamist, Erdogan isn't an islamofascist which is what counts! :D
Re: The rise of Recep Erdogan, from street snack seller to Middle East Muslim champio