The Real Traitors Are

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

those who;

  1. Cowardly surrendered in Bengal, thus saved their own skin but brought immense shame and humiliation to the people of the country.

  2. Ceded a portion of Kashmir to China (where in this world a country donates a part of its territory to another country).

  3. Lost Kargil to India in 71.
    .

  4. Lost Siachen to India.

  5. Destroyed every single democratic instituion of the country. They have made it almost impossible for the elected governments to run this country.

  6. Sectarian violences, drugs, jihadi organizations, Taliban and rampant mullahisam are their most precious presents to the country.

  7. Killed thousands of Balochs, Pakhtuns, Sindhis and the people of the NA.

The list goes on and on. What I see is that Pak is shrinking and its army is growing…

And Gwadar is the only territory that has been added into pakistan and Sirdar Akbar Bugti had played a very positive role to include Gwadar into Pakistan. Thanx god the army was not involved in that process otherwise we would be fighting today with Oman to recover the whole region of Makran. :smiley:

2

Re: The Real Traitors Are

You dare critcise the holy Billionare generals?!!

you are right, but this will only be reflected in history once Pakistan ends up like fmr.Yugoslavia, ironically because of the 'Defenders of Pakistan'

The Random Thread
3

Re: The Real Traitors Are

shawaiz_K,

This post seemed to aim at army which is supported by Punjabis. In a way Punjabis are responsible for all these failures and present state of affairs. Am I correct?

FARID

4

Re: The Real Traitors Are


Don't take them personally, just answer them one by one on who do you think is responsible for each, how is that?

5

Re: The Real Traitors Are

I guess the civilian rulers have been perfect for Pakistan haven't they?

6

Re: The Real Traitors Are

^ it doesn't justify the army rule either, both have been corrupt in one way or the other. It only means that we need to rise above selfishness if we want to become some nation to be reckoned with.

7

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Unfortunately the sad fact is the Armys reputation is sinking, rightly or wrongly, to an all time low right now as a result of Musharrafs rule. It is inevitable that at a certain point his own generals will start considering him excess baggage.

On a positive note, despite the oppositions disuniity and attempts to promote ethnic strife by many Musharraf supporters ..people in Punjab have finally also come out in force to condemn whats going on

[Opp declares war in and outside parliament

Fahim wants govt to quit : Nawaz says final battle near : MMA ready to resign if Opp unites on Musharraf removal](http://thepost.com.pk/Fb_ShortNews.aspx?fbshortid=1156&fcatid=14&fstatus=Current&bcatid=14&bstatus=Current)
Amir Nafees/Omer Rehman

LAHORE: The joint opposition has decided to launch a full-fledged war against the government in and outside the parliament “to rid the country of a military-led setup that has not only made the nation hostage but also put the sovereignty at stake”.

This was crux of the speeches delivered at the joint opposition public meeting, held at Minar-e-Pakistan grounds to express solidarity with the Balochistan people and condemn Nawab Bugti’s killing here Sunday.

There were conflicting views about the number of participants of the meeting. The government sources said 6 to 8 thousand attended the meeting; media people estimated them at 15 to 20 thousand while the host Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD) claimed that over 50 thousand people attended the event.

One of the main features of the event was the telephonic address of Mian Nawaz Sharif. He said a final battle was imminent against the military rulers “who have now started killing the national leaders just to prolong their rule”. In an emotional speech, Nawaz said masses would not forget those who forcibly took over the government and sent the elected government packing without any legal justification. He said General Musharraf must be held accountable for his wrong-doings. He asked the military rulers to mend their ways, surrender to the democratic forces and restore constitution I the country.

He alleged President Musharraf was using the army I his own interest, and by launching a military operation in Balochistan and tribal areas, he has proved that he has no interest in national solidarity. Nawab Bugti’s murder is regrettable and the rulers should remember they have to pay for it what they are doing in Balochistan and Waziristan, he added. “I am facing the hardship of exile for the survival of democracy in the country,” he said adding that very soon Benazir Bhutto and he would be in Pakistan to lead the nation. He also lauded the services of Benazir Bhutto rendered by her while staying abroad. He also paid tributes to Javed Hashmi and Yousaf Raza Gillani for facing the hardship of jails for the cause of democracy. Sharif said the assemblies have lost their credibility and it is useless for the opposition to sit in the assemblies any more. The PML-N is ready to resign from the assemblies and all the opposition parties should endorse this decision, he added.

He urged masses to support the opposition parties to get rid of the military-led government in the country.

Makhdoom Amin Fahim addressing the public meeting said the army general should remember a military operation in East Pakistan had resulted in creation of Bangladesh in 1971. He demanded of the rulers to restore true democracy in the country, otherwise masses would kick them out of the power corridors.

He said Punjab, being the biggest province of the country, should express solidarity with the smaller provinces.

PML-N leader Iqbal Zafar Jhagra declared the Bugti murder a conspiracy against the federation. He said at this time of crisis, the people of Punjab are with their Baloch brethren. He said a PML-N delegation would visit Quetta to express solidarity with the people of Balochistan.

Hafiz Hussain Ahmad of the Muttahid Majlis-e-Amal said if all opposition parties succeed in developing consensus on one-point agenda of removing General Musharraf from his office, the ruler would have to go within a day or two. He asked ARD President Makhdoom Amin Fahim to announce formation of a grand democratic alliance. If this announcement is made today, within two days the MMA and other parties will also be ready to resign from the assemblies, he declared.

Punjab PML-N President Sardar Zulfiqar Khosa said in the current situation, the fight within the assemblies was not a solution to all problems. The opposition parties must take a decision to come out on the roads to get rid of the dictators, he added.

PML-N Balochistan President Sardar Yaqoob Nasir said after Nawab Bugti’s killing the Baloch people were feeling deprived. He said Bugti’s killing was unforgettable and the rulers by committing this crime disappointed the whole nation.

PML-N NWFP President Pir Sabir Shah, Begum Tehmina Daultana and Begum Abida Hussain also addressed the public meeting.

Balochistan National Party (BNP) chief Abdur Rauf Mengal addressing people said the rulers did not want to resolve any issue through political dialogue. He said as a mark of protest against killing of Nawab Bugti he had resigned from his National Assembly seat. He said the best way of registering protest over the Balochistan situation was tendering resignations from the assemblies by all opposition parties.

Former Governor Punjab and PPP leader Ghulam Mustafa Khar said the military general always harmed the country and by killing Bugti the generals have again created hatred among the provinces. Punjab, being a big brother, should play its role for creating harmony among other provinces, he added.

PPP leader Aitzaz Ahsan, speaking on the occasion, said symptoms of downfall of President Musharraf are now visible. He also said Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif would be in Pakistan before the next general elections.

Javed Iqbal of the Pakistan Tahrik-e-Insaaf (PTI) said the war against the government has been started and very soon it would meet its logical end. Various other leaders of the opposition parties claimed that the days of the rulers have been numbered.

At the end of the public meeting, Fateha was offered for Nawab Akbar Bugti and other tribesmen allegedly killed in the military operation.

8

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Zakk,

"There were conflicting views about the number of participants of the meeting. The government sources said 6 to 8 thousand attended the meeting; media people estimated them at 15 to 20 thousand while the host Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD) claimed that over 50 thousand people attended the event."

If you compare this crowd with ZAB, BB or even NS, 50000 is just drop in the ocean. Due to population explosion i think a clown or singer from India can geather much more crowd than 50000. It seemed that Punjabis are least interested in replacing Musharaf or even to hear anything against army. There was no strike in Punjab, when it was called by the opposition in connection with Bugti's murder. Even if oppostion resign, they would do least harm to Musharaf's power. History showed that Paki leaders had not left the seat of power respectfully, instead all of them either killed, hanged or bootedout. Why do you think that his end would be different one than the others?

FARID

9

Re: The Real Traitors Are

bachoon, if there have been no fauji, you guys would be out there cleaning gutters full of cowdung in a united-hindustan.

10

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Thanks to people like u ....... ppl often open threads like this.... *
*if u dont have love for ur own country men how in the world u expect to have a prosperous country.Then u come and blame it on military or gov.
U dont even have unity in ur own kind and expect a wonderful land.Screw that mentality

LUMS Girls
11

Re: The Real Traitors Are

well civilian rulers were allowed to rule it , also even if they ruled badly that is alright we could have kicked them out after few elections, democracy is evolutionary process it just cant happen in one day...

12

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Because nobody else sacrificied for Pakistan?

Defending the borders is the job of every single Army in the world. Yet Pak Army think they are 'special' and deserve to take more from the people.

A long, long time ago, Fauj did their job, and did it well.

Now they are only interested in money and power.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely....appropriate for Pak Army

13

Re: The Real Traitors Are

When few hrs of avg rains wreak havoc on cities, the civilians summon the army.

When there is a massive earthquake, police, fire dept, local/municipal admins, ambulance services etc under *civilians *dont know what to do, and are no where to be found; everyone calls the army in.

When there is lack of law & order and risk of undesirable events, the civil adimisitration calls in the army before hand, to be on the safe side.

When there are floods or famines for that matter, the army is supposed to rescue, feed, lodge, transport victims and provide medical aid. The civil depts supposed to take part in relief ops are almost nowhere to be seen.

When a civil *head of state is incharge of the country for anywhere over a year, wreaking havoc on the economic, law&order situations etc the *civil opposition rushes to the GHQ to request the uniformed generals to save the country (read help them throw away the govt and be installed in its place).

When the civil rulers dont know how to ensure peace and stability in the region through table-talk and diplomacy, the military is asked to flex muscle, lay lives to save lives, land and territory.

Who then are traitors who dont know their jobs and always fail to perform, and who are heroes? Who knows their job perfectly well, and are always ready and skilled to take any job at all, for Pakistan and Pakistanis, always covering in for the civilian, corrupt administrations and their responsibilities.

Who then are the real traitors...!?

As in every blunder there are those who take primary blame, and those who are given secondary blame. Civialian admins and politicians have always been primary culprits. Sure a military govt and military dominance is undesirable. But what brought us here...!? Have we a better choice that can perform if not better than equally well under the prevailing global and national scenario...!? it's a matter of rationality and Pakistan, not idealism...

14

Re: The Real Traitors Are

It is the job of the military in every country to help out in natural disasters, and any occasion that requires manpower

That's the least Pak Army can do for taking so much of the budget, at the expense of health, education, etc

15

Re: The Real Traitors Are

The bigger traitors are: The wacko Zia-ul-Haq, BB, The baldie in exile and ofcourse, our bhagorha-bhai, Iltaf Hussain. I'm willing to settle for anything when you have these people as leaders.

16

Re: The Real Traitors Are

**1. Cowardly surrendered in Bengal, thus saved their own skin but brought immense shame and humiliation to the people of the country.
**There was nothing cowardly about it. Victory was impossible, and the options available were surrender and save 90,000 lives or keep fighting and throw away lives for no purpose. There is no glory in futile last stands unless they help towards victory.

2. Ceded a portion of Kashmir to China (where in this world a country donates a part of its territory to another country).
Oman donated Makran, part of Oman's territory, to Pakistan, as you helpfully pointed out in your post.

*3. Lost Kargil to India in 71. Kargil was under Indian control since *
Kargil was lost to India during an offensive in November 1948. The Bengali civilian Governor-General Kwaja Nazimuddin oversaw this defeat, being Pakistan's de facto head of state (King George VI being the legal head of state at the time).

*5. Destroyed every single democratic instituion of the country. They have made it almost impossible for the elected governments to run this country. *

Democratic institutions were wrecked by the civilian Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who through cutting the power of the President destroyed Pakistan's democracy by removing all checks and balances to the power of the Prime Minister.

6. Sectarian violences, drugs, jihadi organizations, Taliban and rampant mullahisam are their most precious presents to the country.

The dramatic escalation in sectarian violend, drugs, and jihadi organizations after the Afghan war can be directly traced to the civilian Benazir Bhutto's government support of the Taliban. Without Bhutto's 1990s support for the Taliban, continued by Nawaz Sharif, the Taliban would be nothing but an insignificant rural militia.

7. Killed thousands of Balochs, Pakhtuns, Sindhis and the people of the NA.
Campaign against traitors in Balochustan and the FATA are a trait common to both democratic and military goverments in pakistan. It was Zulfikar Bhutto who unleashed the army on the Balochs in 1974. Military campaigns in the FATA go back to the 1950s, under civilian rule as well.
And what has the military done against "thousands" of Sindhis?

17

Re: The Real Traitors Are


Didn't Ayub Khan bring first Martial Law? He continued to rule for long time, followed by another one, then another one..... till today.

18

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Ayubs Martial Law was far better then democractic Martial Law. Case in point when people came out on the streets protesting against Ayub he stepped down and moved on. When people came out on the streets protesting against ZAB he said “meri kursi mazboot haey”.

19

Re: The Real Traitors Are

actually Ayub Khan didn't resign he was forced out by his own generals.

20

Re: The Real Traitors Are

Haris you are making a circular argument in this section…it’s not like the reverse has not happened in Pakistan. In 1971 the Army turned to ZAB to save the country ..it was not just about losing half the country and 98000 POWS India was on the verge of finishing what was left of Pakistan. Our Army was in ruins and India occupied large chunks of west pakistani territory on top of that…it was a civilian who turned things around without firing a shot(the price he paid for covering the Armys acts of comission and omissionof the Army is another matter). Similarly in the 1990’s after Zia and the entire upper army leadership was wiped out..it was the civilians who helped ease US sanctions , tested nukes despite being offered a far better deal than Mush post 9/11, developed pakistans nuke programme (whereas the military leadership was least interested in nukes in the '60’s because they thought they had americas protection).

That politics is a dirty business goes without saying..but when the army gets involved in it ..it becomes a lot dirtier, simply because civilians for all their flaws can be reigned in by the people whereas a military dictator only understands the threat of force.

As far as rationality is concerned, you are invoking nazaria zaroorat: the doctrine of neccessity as a reason..and pragmatism as a need. To that I can only answer one thing: the ultimate pragmatist is a prostitute; i prefer idealism because the ultimate idealists are saints and statesman.