I was recently audience to a very interesting dialouge about the reason why Muslims are in the state we find ourselves in today. One of the arguments really stuck with me and i wanted to share it here at this forum.
A major major reason of our downfall has been the separation of Modern sciences from traditional religious education along with a gradual closing of the window of Ijtehad around 13th centuary AD.As Ijtehad often provided the way forward in times of crisis. Giving it up meant we had a deadlock and with the separation of both fields of education meant that we could no longer relate to the other which alienated religious scholars from scientists and vice versa and as it carried on over centuries we find it almost impossible to bridge the gap. Even today despite realising the importance of it we are still bent on keeping these two lines completely separate…Can we agree???
Re: The Real Reason
Quite true. Todays religious scholars assert themselves as authorities on every thing whereas todays scientists or thinkers somewhat are alienated from religious principles. I think a marriage of the two is very necessary.
We are heading for the same disaster Christianity has already met in the mid 17-18th centuries whereas there clerics had a stranglehold on every matter and receded scientific progress based on their whims. This also gave birth to the modern day secular socieities they have however their are differences in Christianity and Islam. Islam does not shut the doors on knowledge and progress as many are lead to believe. People treat Islam as if it is some Christian heresy plagued with the same issues Christianity had. Chrisitian clerics were vested with divine authority in their structure and they had the power to outlaw whatever they wanted to without further thought, whereas Islamic scholars are not and in fact must be seekers of knowledge.
Re: The Real Reason
whoever closed the door of ijtihad???
from where do u ppl get this idea that ijtihaad is no longer done in Islam???
dont u see ulema issuing new fatwas these days???
these fatwas come from ijtihaad…
someone plz explain me how and why do u think ijtihaad is no longer done… 
Re: The Real Reason
U know ARM, I think people treat fatwas from scholars of the past with greater authority than from scholars of today. There clearly is an issue of credbility here.
Re: The Real Reason
We are heading for the same disaster Christianity has already met in the mid 17-18th centuries whereas there clerics had a stranglehold on every matter and receded scientific progress based on their whims.
If we closly examine the meaning of the word that is used to describe our religion of Islam, Allah and our Rasul (PBUH) called Islam a "DEEN" the meaning of the word 'deen' is "A way of Life"
So to learn to live in this "way of life" Muslims are expected to acquire all knowledge needed to live our lives that includes Medicine, Science and Technology in addition to Quran and Hadith.
Just follow the true meaning of the Word "Deen"
**Simple example is the Faraiz without which our five time prayers are not complete, one very important Faraz is to determine the direction of Qibla, **
**How many Madrassa's do we know of that teach their students geography, a science that was given great support by early Muslim scholars so they could find their way every year from far off distances to perform Hajj. Today it is totally ignored so you have half the people in USA still praying in the South East direction not knowing that Qibla is in the North East direction from North America....:( **
Also how many Madrassa's teach their young students swimming, horseback riding and shooting arrows, a must learn for all young boys as prescribed by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) ofcourse in todays culture the later two can be replaced with modern rides and arms.
**You do not need any ijtihad for these basic necessities of life...:( **
**Just common sense would do just fine....:) **
Re: The Real Reason
bring forward some examples…
otherwise u r putting a big blame on the whole of the muslim ummah…
Re: The Real Reason
its not as simple as that. the closing of ijtihad doesnt mean that there wont be any new fatwas but that new fatwas cannot reinterpret quran/hadis already interpreted by older fatawa in any new way.
Re: The Real Reason
This is NOT the real reason of decline of Muslims.
Science and christianity are still at odds wih each other and yet they have prospered. Same is the case with science and Judaism.
Look beyond the religious perspective, there areother reasons why nations excel or decline. Leadership, hardwork, honesty, uprooting the rampant corruption are the things we need, NOT fatwas. Fatwas, new or old, won't make much difference.
Re: The Real Reason
The reason for the seperation of the church and state has been the incompatablity between religion and science, at least in christianity and judaism. People notice discrepancies in religion and hence resort to secularism.
Modernity, as we see today, is the product of western thought. We muslims have merely assimilated the western thought. Modernity and western thought are, however, not synonymous. Islam "was" the most modern ideology back then. Islam contributed greatly to the world and we muslims could be modern in our own way. Implementation of Islamic law is the easiest way to become modern. Islam, as most believe, is not a reactionary ideology; on the contrary it is progressive. Look, for the example, Spain under the rule of Islam. Undoubtedly it was one of the most "modern" nation of the contemporary world. There was no incompatability between religion and science.
But then suddenly modernity or should I say "western thought" was seen as distructive and inherently unislamic, and rightly so. Western thought saw religion as irrational and incompatable with "modern thought". Islam, on the other hand, is a complete way of life. This led to two great extremes. Some accepted the western ideology and discarded religion. Others saw "modernity" as invasive and the "western ideology" as an affront. Those who saw western ideology as disruptive, discarded "modernity" completely.
Re: The Real Reason
Are you kidding me? Every time there is a discussion on some hadith or the other, and someone talks about a new scholar's opinion or puts forth their own scholarly opinion (remember, in Islam, there are no clerics), then the argument is always "You don't know anything and neither do your modern scholars - respected scholars of the past made a good decision on this issue and that's what we should follow".
I think this forum is full of examples like this.
Re: The Real Reason
^ what examples????
i see many modern issues for which contemporary ulemah have issues fatwas....
they dont just close their eyes on things....
Re: The Real Reason
ARM, my statement was not assertive but rather inquisitive. However can there be any bigger examples than of Hanafi, Shafii, Hanbali and Maliki madhab followers, who will not change or do something from the other madhab no matter what?
Re: The Real Reason
Although I hardly have any knowledge on the topic, but I don't think separation of religion and science is the reason for our downfall. I see it more along the lines of extreme division and partisanship amongst Muslims in general and some other things mentioned above (deceit, corruption, etc.) that might have led to our demise.
Also, some scholars of the past are highly revered, but there are many scholars (mostly local in our areas) that are revered and referred to as well. Of course if someone's completely out of line, then some tend to distance themselves from such scholars. Other than that scholars were regarded both in the past and in the present.
Re: The Real Reason
Also, some scholars of the past are highly revered, but there are many scholars (mostly local in our areas) that are revered and referred to as well. Of course if someone's completely out of line, then some tend to distance themselves from such scholars. Other than that scholars were regarded both in the past and in the present.
The reason i say that this is the real reson is that Islam unlike other religions gives us a chance to change and adapt to the ever changing world without giving up the essence and the fundamentals of our religion by way of ijtihad. By doing this we can keep following our religion and pursue modern sciences to maintain the dominance that we once enjoyed as a result of this partnership. The problem is that religious leaders who are not equipped (and most are these days) with modern knowledge and want to pursue politics and influence public opinion , then they have to draw this divide between religion and modern sciences otherwise their opinion do not carry the same weight. Thats why we need ijtihad to pave the way for the partnership of knowledges to open our minds and remove this owenership that religious political parties have today on our religion.
Re: The Real Reason
One should be careful when listening to the scholars and should always ask them for references. This way it makes it more difficult for them to hide behind their own biases or agenda, if they have any. Also, not all scholars are out there to get you and to brainwash you.
In addition, I always thought ijtihad is a tool to deal with the everchanging world that we live in. I didn't think it'd function as a tool to help us open our minds. Besides, there shouldn't be any ownership in religion to begin with.