I recall a saying attributed to Imam Hussein that he said he could not make a pledge to Yazid because that would make him a kaffir (or words to that effect).
I would like to verify the exact quote and ask a question does making a pledge even out of compulsion to a cruel or unjust ruler make one kaffir? To my knolwedge it is acceptable to lie for the sake of ones life in Islam?
Re: The question of Bayt
Imam Husain a.s said that "mera jaisa tujh jaisay ke bayt nahi kar sukta". to do a bayt on yazeed (l.a) hands would have meant accepting yazeed's (l.a) version of islam which was not what Prophet pbuh gave us.
Re: The question of Bayt
No the above qutoe seems to typical piece of exaguration, infact Imam Hussain placed three conditions to aviod the fight: historical books provide these conditions as :
1) let me go to yazeed and i'll talk with him on the issue of bayt on One-to-One basis.
2) Allow me to go join Jihad against Kufaars.
3) Let me go back to Makkah.
Now if Imam (RZA) would have said the above thing then he under no circumstances would have given the above mentioned conditions to negotiate.
The Incident of Karbala ( like many other things) has been exagurated by a particular cult, an dit is understood why, as this incident is one of the main reasons of their existence.
Re: The question of Bayt
imam hasan (ra) stood down in favor of muaweyah (ra) and u said it is "tuqiya"....
why was tuqiya not allowed for imam hussain (ra)????
Re: The question of Bayt
{psyah's emotional piece}
How can we say that the grandson of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) lied?
Why was Hussain (RA) prevented from speaking with Yazid?
Who were these people who stood in the way of the leaders of Islam?
Why are people blamed today for the mistakes of the others?
Perhaps this will bring an answer or two?
Re: The question of Bayt
imam hasan (ra) stood down in favor of muaweyah (ra) and u said it is "tuqiya".... why was tuqiya not allowed for imam hussain (ra)????
whoever says it was taqiya is lying ....he stood down conditionally however none of these conditions were kept by muawiyah
Re: The question of Bayt
I would like to verify the exact quote and ask a question does making a pledge even out of compulsion to a cruel or unjust ruler make one kaffir? To my knolwedge it is acceptable to lie for the sake of ones life in Islam?
it does not make one a kafir at all and you are quite right if life is threatened we can make a pledge to anyone .....and Hussain b ALi [as] did not consider those who made a pledge to yazid under compulsion [or otherwise] kafirs at all .....otherwise he would have issued statements against his relatives and friends did pledge to yazid to avoid bloodshed.
However his position as descendent of Prophet[pbuh] was different if he gave his blessings to yazid's rule without making a protest, people would assume he is endorsing yazid's actions.
Re: The question of Bayt
whoever says it was taqiya is lying ....he stood down conditionally however none of these conditions were kept by muawiyah
Please do mention the conditions:
According to Shia belives, Khilfah only belongs to Hazrat Ali (RZA) and his family, no other can have this position, what so ever, but Imam Hassan (RZA) seems to comprise on this belief, isn't.
How can a person like Imam Hassan (RZA) will (conditionally) allow a person like Muawiyah (RZA) ( which according to shia is may be the worst guy on earth) to rule the Islamic world, and against whom Imam Hussain (RZA) never rebelled?
If muawiah (RZA) was that bad, why didn't Imam Hussain raised against him?
please share ur piece of knowledge on this bring me in light.
Re: The question of Bayt
^ first of all what shias believe today was not the same what shias in that time believed so the theory of imamate was formalized much later in its present form
secondly hussain b ALi did not rebel against muawiyah ?
intially as he had to keep his end of the treaty [like a honorable muslim ]even though muawiyah started violating his terms later on.By appointing yazid as his heir muawiyah had violated even the last clause of the treaty and rebellion against ummayyads had become legitimate
regarding peace treaty itself there is a book called "life of Imam Hasan al-mujtaba" by BAqir Shareef al-quraishi there various historical reports are discussed in great detail along with the motivation and background of the historians
Re: The question of Bayt
^^ so u are saying is Shia Believes have changed with the passage of time? and one of the fundamental believe ( imamate) came in later... my question to this is, who brought it? what authenticity that peson had to alter the believes.
Brother please give some logical explaination, as Muaiwah as ruled for much longer time, and Y did, Imam Hussain was quite for iss actions ( which according to shia believes were against Islam), and if u will not provide me a satisfactory answer to this ( the answer u have given above is not good by any mean as the core of the question is remained un answered), i'll take stories realted to "bughz-e-Muaviah" as something "formalized" later to found the Shia religion.
I can give you name of number of books who says that case is not what shia believes, so instead of jut pasting name of books, y don't u paste the treaty here, so that every one will be awarre of the evils Muaviah (RZA) has done.
Re: The question of Bayt
no doubt it has changed over time ....and there are various sects of shias today which never existed in those days
I suggest Moojen Momen's "introduction to shiaism " for this topic
[quote]
Brother please give some logical explaination, as Muaiwah as ruled for much longer time, and Y did, Imam Hussain was quite for iss actions ( which according to shia believes were against Islam), and if u will not provide me a satisfactory answer to this ( the answer u have given above is not good by any mean as the core of the question is remained un answered),
[/quote]
you want shortcuts which unfortunately I cannot give ....my answer was the most I could pack in a couple of sentences
your question cannot be fully answered without understanding the events preceeding and following the armistice thats why i recommended that book
[quote]
I can give you name of number of books who says that case is not what shia believes, so instead of jut pasting name of books, y don't u paste the treaty here, so that every one will be awarre of the evils Muaviah (RZA) has done
[/quote]
I am not sure if clauses of treaty are avalible online if u r interested u can google it
Re: The question of Bayt
^^ I thought so...
Re: The question of Bayt
Just a Side question, but why do Shias ascribe [as] after the name of certain People?
Isn't that supposed to be for Prophets pbut only?
Re: The question of Bayt
Imam Husain a.s said that "mera jaisa tujh jaisay ke bayt nahi kar sukta". to do a bayt on yazeed (l.a) hands would have meant accepting yazeed's (l.a) version of islam which was not what Prophet pbuh gave us.
This is the typical example of twisting the words of the Imam to suit the desired effect. (Self Delusion I guess)
All that the Imam said was: “ A person like me cannot take bayt (pledge of loyalty) with person like to you.”
Accordding you (your version of Islam), shouldn't the Imam have stated that he is the Imam of the time?
Now, show me where does the Imam mention Yazeed have a new version of Islam?
You are going against the words of Hz. Ali (ra) (Remember, he, to you is infallible) but I suppose his words don’t suit your ‘requirements.’
Following was uttered by Hz. Ali (ra) in regards with his dispute with Hz. Mauwiyah (ra)
"The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it................. Nahjul Balagha - Letter 58
Read well Hazrat Ali (ra) has stated that there not an iota of difference in the faith of both the parties.
Faith of Imam Hussein (ra) was par excellence than that of Yazeed.