The Prophet

I thought this was a seperate topic offshooting from virginity thread (No Jasoos, not virgin thread).

One of our highly esteemed and aalim faazil friend, Mr. Abdul Basit dumped some hadiths on us (as is the case with many of our other aalim faazil friends here) in which Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asks this newly wed guy if his wife was a virgin or not. The immediate thought came to my mind was ‘why would a prophet ask a follower if his wife is virgin or not’? May be he in fact did, may be he didn’t, but that’s what the point of this thread is - Am I supposed to simply take the words by their ‘face values’ and accept them?

Muslims give a lot respect and reverence to the Prophet. That is due and proper. But there is an over-emotional side to it that sometimes crosses the bounderies and becomes more like a ‘fiery devotion’ or aggressive obsession.

There is a lot of stuff associated with him that you would think that doesn’t make any sense to you, and you refuse to accept its validity. Now, you have no way of knowing if the matter in question was true or not. As an average person, you don’t posses the broad religious knowledge, don’t have the time or resources to validate it, or perhaps more commonly, don’t care (you won’t admit to others though). All you have is your own personal inference. So you look at the matter critically according to your senses. Nothing wrong with that, we all do that in every day life. But the minute you say something to such connotations, you are under fire. People take anything contradictory as disrespectful towards the Prophet. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there a difference between refusing to believe something based on your inference and sheer disrespectfulness? Heck, I can say more stuff about Allah and can get away with it than what can I even think about the Prophet.

There is also a superstitious psyche working in the background. It seems to me that people are not even sure of their own logic or believes just out of the fear that they are inadvertently being disrespectful and consequently will burn in hell. Human psychology and paranoia are funny things, but they are funnier when it’s not about Allah but the Prophet.

I think Muslims over-idolize Prophet, which I’m sure even he won’t like if he’d be alive. There is just no realism the way people talk about him and treat him. It’s like an illusion of God in the form of human body. And I cannot believe some people even think he was a ‘piece of noor’, not a human.

[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asks this newly wed guy if his wife was a virgin or not. The immediate thought came to my mind was 'why would a prophet ask a follower if his wife is virgin or not'
[/quote]

Virgin here means if she'd been married before or not. What might soung odd in one language isnt necessarily so in another.

After reading that particular Hadith I got more confused over these Hadiths' cuz then I am left wondering why did t/ Prophet (P.B.U.H.) marry Hazrat Khadija who being a widow was obviously not a virgin?? So why would t/ Prophet encourage men to marry virgins all things being equal i.e. age, personal charachter etc. I would think He would do t/ opposite that is encourage marrying a widow or a divorcee' since these females have more of a social stigma attached to them.
Anyone and evryone will want to marry a virgin i.e. one who has never been married before. Why *not] encourage * t/ widows and t/ divorcees of our society for marriage??

After reading that particular Hadith I got more confused over these Hadiths' cuz then I am left wondering why did t/ Prophet (P.B.U.H.) marry Hazrat Khadija who being a widow was obviously not a virgin?? So why would t/ Prophet encourage men to marry virgins all things being equal i.e. age, personal charachter etc. <<<<

Prophet or Islam only said there are only 4 reasons to marry a girl (don't ask me reasons for a girl to marry a boy) and none of them states that she has to be virgin or whatever people are interpreting.

I would think He would do t/ opposite that is encourage marrying a widow or a divorcee' since these females have more of a social stigma attached to them. <<<

Social stigma is mainly in our society. We have got this from Indian culture. Islam doesn't prohibit marrying widows/divorcees. Additional to marriages at the early stage it has the concept of 4 marriages to provide support to women who don't have any such support but it is misunderstood (or believed) to be "mainly" for sexual requirements. Problem is that lack of understanding of religion will make guys/girls shout that why it is allowed only for men coz their dirty minds make them think as it is all about sex and there should be fairness.

Anyone and evryone will want to marry a virgin i.e. one who has never been married before. Why *not] encourage * t/ widows and t/ divorcees of our society for marriage??<<<<

Let the virgins marry first and then we can think of people who already had their turn. I don't know if other people have seen this but I have seen boys/girls getting older not only in the UK but even in Pakistan without any marriage for one reason or another. Girls would know better who is loosing out in this madness of delayed marriage.

If the question at hand is, should we question a Hadiths or not (with due respect off course) then sure enough the answer is YES!

The books of Hadiths (i.e: Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari, etc) are a collection of those which the Imams (Imam Muslim, Imam Bukhari etc) of that specific book tried to validate as per their knowledge & efforts.

So, they might be 'Sahih' but not 'absolutely' the work of AnHazoor (saw)

Off course one can use one’s own judgment, if the decision is made in all innocence and right intentions.

If the perticular hadiths is in question, then someone needs to give some details & refrences before we further discuss it.

WHo--me :)

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**If the question at hand is, should we question a Hadiths or not (with due respect off course) then sure enough the answer is YES!

The books of Hadiths (i.e: Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari, etc) are a collection of those which the Imams (Imam Muslim, Imam Bukhari etc) of that specific book tried to validate as per their knowledge & efforts.

So, they might be 'Sahih' but not 'absolutely' the work of AnHazoor (saw)

Off course one can use one’s own judgment, if the decision is made in all innocence and right intentions.**
[/quote]

Ahmad, you deffinitely raise an excellent point. An extremely important thing to remember as well is that Quran only guarantees the purity of Quran itself, and have no guarantees regarding the hadith or anything else.
But before we dismiss a Hadith, we have to make sure that we have complete knowledge and education of the issue in religious and rational terms. We can not simply disregard a Hadith just because it does not fit our mind set; and unfortunately that is what most of us do.
This topic itself is a good example of that, asking if that person married a virgin, was deffinitely to ask if she was married before, and not the other.

And Roman, you are right about us muslims "idolizing" the Prophet, Quran, or even Hadith. We will be willing to give our lives if something bad is said about Islam or Prophet, or Quran; but the irony is that we know very little about/of them.
We have put Quran on high shelves in our home, highly visible; instead of our bed sidetables, or our study tables.


Wise to resolve, and patient to perform. --Homer

[This message has been edited by mangelo (edited June 28, 2001).]

Khan Sahib, I just get peeved when I see or hear about a widower/divorced man w/ kids marry a never before married virgin (let’s be specific here for otheres!). I mean why not @ least prefer, hence seek a widow or a divorce, sum1 who has been in similar situation.

My instructions to my hubby are that if and when I die and he wants to remarry

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

, he must seek a widow or a divorce. Don’t get me wrong I dont want to mke it a charity case here, I would just like for him to strict instructions to his Mom & sister to look for a widow/ divorce instead of t/ usual 21 yr old who still has a chance in comparison to a 21 yr old divorced/ widow! Besides, I think he’ll be too old for a 21 yr old anyway!!

P.S. I am using t/ word “seek” in accordance w/ our Desi tradition where usually it’s t/ guys mom and sister going on girl hunting spree. It does not include scenarios where one meets sum1 and falls in love w/ t/ other person.

Roman. To be honest, some groups of Muslims that I have come across are the biggest idiots that I know of. There is a word for it - I think "gullible" comes close. I sometimes wonder how they have managed to get this far. It only takes a few quasi-pundits to declare something stupid using religion as a cloak for their purposes and suddenly people fall into step. They love to spout all kinds of lovely arabic terminology just to appear to have some intellectual style. But it works. Say that some "brother" in the pulpit says so-and-so is so-and-so. They "trust" the brother. Why? Because he gives good talks in the library and his leaflets kind of seem convincing to their minds. Yet far too many can't come up with better or even repectable reasons. And then there are those who spread these tales because they want to exploit the material in order to appear knowledgable, for others to follow their own example. Unfortunately, as it turns out, these are not isolated cases. Despite their association with it, the problem lies with those who are unwilling to question the nitty-gritty intricacies of religion, which come their way.

I think there are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, they are already fully commited to their stance. There has to be some action resulting from it because the commitment to their ideology is powerful. But of course, if there had to be action, then in order to appear to others that your position is somewhat intellectual, then some cause has to be identified for it. Even if it has to be invented or assumed or somehow conjured up out of thin air. Remember those "Khilafah movement" people? How utterly ridiculous. Any social scientist can suss the motives of these people out. And any reasonable or intelligent person is aware that on social questions we proceed from diagnosis to action. But if action is imperative, then we make the cause fit the acton. The imperatives of action specify those causes which are not "ideologically" or "religiously" acceptable and so they only select the causes which are in line with their beliefs. Secondly, those people are far too prepared in deferring to mere authority. They don't defer to a good argument because it is not within their interest to do so. This tendency can be proved by the fact that if they really had good teachers, then they would encourage them to do the right thing, which would be to submit to a better and more logical argument. Not simply to mere authority. But logic and good thinking remains pretty much a mysterious thing to many groups of Muslims.

They love to glorify great "Ulemas" who have written tons of material on religious matters. Even if they had made mistakes it doesn't really matter. They would still prefer to believe the great scholar. It is so easy to point to so many issues which these great people got wrong, but it would cause an outcry from virtually everybody here. There are so many obvious flaws in the Muslim traditions conjured up in the past, which are accepted simply because no one has ever disputed them. Far too many people believe that "attaining" knowledge only consists of regurgitating the views of previous scholars in support of their own. The ability to think clearly is regarded as a crapshoot by comparison. Some are just not prepared to be intellectually honest. Because it would be beneath their dignity.


Stand upright, speak thy thought, declare,
The truth thou hast that all may share,
Be bold, proclaim it everywhere,
They only live who dare.

Why can't people consider the prophet (saw) for what he was? A human being, a mortal and in fact, an average-for-those-times one for he could not even read or write.

The whole idea, as I have been taught, was to show how Islam could be implemented in everyone's life. It was not so difficult to follow....and the perfect way to do that was for Allah to select an average individual - our beloved prophet (saw).

muzna...if he was mortal, average etc etc...y the hell would allah(swt) make him the prophet?!

hazrat gabrial(as) came to bibi amna(ra) and said u will give birth to a son...name him muhammad

hmm...if he was average and whatever else u said...how come my mommy didn't get a divine revelation?!

when do i get to go on mirage?

He(saw) was higher than any man...he was better than any man, living or passed put together...he was the best.
and plus, don't don't follow hadith blindly, for they have been written by mere mortals, and can have mistakes.


"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous

He(saw) was higher than any man...he was better than any man..

Ahl_e_Sunnah mian, please explain where in islam it says that the prophet was higher than any other. The fact that Abu bakr stood up upon Prohet's death and explained the mortality of the prophet should be something to think about.

Anyways, I don't think Prophet was higher than any other man. I certainly do think he was better than all the other men.

Can we be content with the thought that Hazrat Mohammad was a great man. And a man he was. He was born and he died. Higher/lower, greater/lessor than other men. How does it matter. And Why did Allah make him a prophet? Do you think we are smart enough to understand Allah's mind??

[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited July 12, 2001).]

786

La hawla wa quwwata ilah billah!

I am amazed that so called Muslims doubt the fact that Allah has created His Beloved Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam as the highest and greatest of not just human beings but of the whole of Creation. It is evident from the Qur'an and the hadith and to believe it is a part of iman and to doubt it is kufr.

ANY sort of disrespect towards Allah's Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is kufr and apostasy. This is not my opinion or the opinion of a mullah of today but the common shared belief of all Muslims of Ahle Sunnah since the time of Allah's Prophet himself sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

I will not discuss it here but if you want proofs take this to the religion forum.

I will not even wish to be part of a thread in which the azmat of Huzoor Paak sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is questioned.

Read Qur'an and read the hadith including the sahih hadiths.

Let me read the kalimah again: la ilaha il Allahu Muhammadur Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).

In fact so incensed am i by these ignoratn comments that I am posting a short article I wrote and researched on this very topic a while back.

Email me for more info. PM me for my email.

Those who are still not satisfied and need to see the hadiths etc. for themselves are directed to http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/THE_PROPHETIC_TITLE.htm

I am doing this in the hope that the iman of myself and of those readers who perhaps due to lack of islamic knowledge for whatever reasons will be corrected in this most vital of all matters of the Din. For we would not have known even Allah had it not been for His Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam’s telling us.

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited July 12, 2001).]

[quote]
*Originally posted by Asif:
*

I am amazed that so called Muslims doubt the fact that Allah has created His Beloved Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam as the highest and greatest of not just human beings but of the whole of Creation. It is evident from the Qur'an and the hadith and to believe it is a part of iman and to doubt it is kufr.

ANY sort of disrespect towards Allah's Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is kufr and apostasy. This is not my opinion or the opinion of a mullah of today but the common shared belief of all Muslims of Ahle Sunnah since the time of Allah's Prophet himself sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

I will not discuss it here but if you want proofs take this to the religion forum.

I will not even wish to be part of a thread in which the azmat of Huzoor Paak sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is questioned.

[/quote]

Nonsense. You don't care about the truth. If you did you wouldn't be chastising others for offering an honest and relevent opinion. Who criticised or doubted the prophet here anyway? What you seemingly want is for no one to challenge the basis and purpose of your beliefs. Are your beliefs so weak and unjustified that they can not stand being honestly challenged? Surely your faith is strong enough to withstand an honest opinion about it.


Stand upright, speak thy thought, declare,
The truth thou hast that all may share,
Be bold, proclaim it everywhere,
They only live who dare.

Infalliable and Mortal are two different things

and if he(saw) was falliable...then y should i follow him? y would god(swt) send him as our prophet(saw)?!

u choose a leader that u all would want to be like...that's my belief

THE END


"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous