Let me shatter at least one sterotype you cling to for dear life. My counsellor during high school was a Quran teacher who wore hijab and did purdah, firmly believed in polygamy and a woman's place at home. I unloaded all my woes about sex, drugs, men, moving out on her, and my athiesm. She did not alert my parents, did not lecture me about my hatred for Islam and instead offered her home for me to come and live in,
As for institutional shortcomings, how about this. Foreign students who cannot work outside of campus and campus jobs do not pay much and their parents back home cannot support them fully financially. Scholarships and bursaries are not open to them
And how about this. All those who I have talked to must have been hallucinating discrimination when other candidates were chosen over them, despite them being of equal calibre.
What about only Western perspective being taught in highschool, with contributions of Chinese, and others being sorely, SORELY misrepresented. Or what about professors in religious studies classes very deliberately offending the beliefs of others.
And what about those like yourself, who opine crap that religion cannot go hand in hand with progress, that it must be relegated to an inferior influence upon the individual for that person to succeed in life.
I do not need to tell you about institutional barricades, I don't even know much about them myself but I know enough that I think you stuffing everyone into a box labeled bad religion will not solve anything. Maybe solve things for only a small segment, but certainly not for everyone.
Ancedotal evidence versus grave stats.. You are absolutely right about your limitatioons around understanding institutional barricades. i have never said, bad religion..I have said..keep it personal and to your self..intermingle with people, give and learn..that is what I have said from post 1. if you read selectively I cannot be blamed.
first of all, lack of English proficiency is not a choice. People come to the States for a better life and they often come from very disadvantaged background through very illegal means. And iI bet many of them already have too many children from before they came here. And having too many children has nothing to do with religion.
I still think you are off your rocker when you narrow down the answer to all socioeconomic ills to religion. Again, that's an oversimplication. If only religion were that influential in people's lives and that important. The truth is, the majority do not even practice religion fully. many of those who stand up for Islam here, me included, do not even pray much. So how can you say religion breeds ignorance when it is for the most part and absent and inconsequentail factor in the lives of most except when it is attacked.
Tell me Sarah, why do Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK have a lower percapita income than hindus and sikhs..why do Pakistanis in NYC are worse off, as supported by the data above than all other groups. It is NOT Islam, goofball..it is their interpretation of islam. That is what my thread was about...there are also Pakistanis whose families are more open to assimilation, don';t have hangups about putting religion before everything else and they succeed immensely.
What grave stats. Quote me grave stats that say low SES is due to people not dating, people being extreme about religion, people not marrying out of their race and cultural group. After all that, that is what your first post said didn't it. That's the factors you identified.
Any do takkay ka lowly immigrant who drives a taxi can marry a gori, and they do. That same loser will also drink socially, smoke etc. Yet he still remains scum. you are attributing a causal relationship where none exists. from what I can understand of you, you are in effect saying discarding religion and opening up social channels comes first, high SES follows on its heels. thats fallacious reasoning.
But I will do as you said and stop stuffing my views down your gullet. Tata.
The data complied by AAFNY and the work done by my NGO is the reality. COme to NY sometime, I will introduce to girls 16 and 17 whose parents don;t want them attending SAT tutoring classes because they are coed. They will be coed in my NGO and they will be coed in school and they will be coed at Kaplan. You have very little idea about ground realities, instead of having a chip on the shoulder about some ill perceoived insult to your religion, do something about it.
Anyone who feels that he or she needs to shove their religion
down other people's throats in order to express their points of
view is an idiot.
Anyone who feels that he or she needs to challenge or degrade
someone else's religion in order to express their own point of
view is an idiot.
Religion is a choice of personal matter. Secular is not belonging
to any religion. Having said that it's possible to have a belief and
be secular. But one can not be secular and have a religion. There's
a fine line between religion and belief. Along the same lines it's
the most absurd argument ever to say that someone who has
gfs/bfs or is married into other religions and cultures is the
best example of assimilation/integration into the western culture.
Maybe their religion doesn't allow them to marry into other faiths
and walk down that path.
What might seem right to that person might not be the right way
to go at all. No matter how unliking of the eastern cultures, even
westerners do not respect those who can't abide by their own cultures,
traditions, religions and beliefs. At the same time calling
people 'goras/kalas/chaptas' shows the ignorance of the person
using such terms. You can not call someone gora/kala/chapta/neela/
peela and claim that you are tolerant or have learnt anything from
being in a multiculturally diverse environment.
Everyone knows there are good and bad people everywhere. There
are intelligent classy folks as well as ignorant buffonic shmucks everywhere.
Just because some muslim parents in NY limit and restrict their children's
means of progression doesn't mean they are the prime examples of
Islamic-parenthood. I have seen some such parents myself in the community.
But for every parent that doesn't allow his child the full benefits of a
good education there are five more who do.
You are doing good work. But wouldn't it require some direct change in the parents and not the girls themselves? Because the way I imagine it, if the girl goes against her parents, it will create rifts. Aik problem khatam hua, doosra shuru.
It is about changing midsets. It is about what is perceived as anti-religion or anti-islam in this case...that was the point reiterated over and over again in my posts. No one cares if their parents face east to pray, go to a gurdwara or ring a ghanti in the mandir...but when their relgious views preclude their kids from having the same opportunities as others in an adopted land..it creates an underclass..which we are seeing develop. It is their parents interpretation of their religion which is keeping these girls from equal opportunity. If they keep it in their pants and let the kids have a shot at the opportunities, not treat their girls and women like chattle...it would do more service to thei rreligion than praying 55 times a day.
Their kids their choice. Why does anyone else has to get
so hung up about it. Maybe others do things with their kids
that these 'religious' parents don't agree with even minutely.
The 'desi' mentality to put a person down by labelling every
practice of that person's as a product of their belief and religion
is equally as ignorant as blindly following a faith without
inquiring why things are the way they are. Live and let live.
The girls who live in western countries all their lives and then
let someone treat them as chattles are equally as much to blame
as the person treating them as such. Putting up with corruption/
torture is the same as promoting it.
Kids who let themselves be treated as properties are at their
own loss. Maybe in the next janum they can all
be yours. This way you can worry less and they can benefit
more from your 'progressive' upbringing.
For one thing some people on this board are so insecure
that every general comment sends them on the rebound.
Don't be uptight and so darn defensive. Your inability to
get drunk or run off with some guy is perceived as 'inability'
only by yourself and no one else. You make it sound like one
of the two things:
1) as if it's some big deal you're left out of participating in yet
it's so 'unfathomable' to you.
or 2) as if you're endowing some humongous favor upon your
parents by not indulging in such acts when you would really
like to, all the while, the world is passing you by as you sit
by the window at your parents' feet.
By the way if I was arguing from Matsui's point of view I'd say
your brother didn't go wrong overnight. If you are who you are
because of your parents couldn't the same be said for your
brother as well? But then again I'm not Matsui and thus
you can save yourself the defensive outcry.
[Quote]
*If they were more easygoing I don't think I'd have such trouble. I am the way I am, who I am because of my parents, their sacrifices and hard work. Yeh I've made mistakes along the way--who hasn't--but to harbour such hatred for them that I can just easily dismiss them and cut them out of my life....
[/Quote]
*
You're running around in circles contradicting yourself. So you have
trouble because your parents are strict and you wish they were
little bit more relaxed and laid back. Then you don't want to challenge
them because enough damage is done by your brother's actions as it is,
eventhough you feel the need to question their authority in your case
because you have such a hard time.
The major problem many Muslim girls have is that they think the
only way of dealing with parents is by dismissing and cutting their
parents out of their lives. And that's exactly where they go wrong and
mess up their lives stupidly. Parents can be wrong at times, just like
kids can. But the kids who want to take the extreme route by punishing
their parents through cutting off ties with them end up
really screwing themselves. Why can't you reason with your parents
instead of cutting them out of your life and dismissing them? Because
you think they won't agree with your point of view. If you're legal in
US, there is no one who can stop you from having an education, not
even your parents. And bottom line is if you go to school and come
back home minus wanting to oogle at guys, talk with them or make
boy friends, even if you have to fight in court for your right for
education, again granted that that's all you'll do, get an education,
what's wrong with that.
Aalhan, I'm not insecure. I was just providing my views and thoughts and didn't take anything you said personally. I'm not looking to argue either, just provide my point of view :)
I think we are discussing two differnet things here: education and social life... I was referring to having a social life, not being denied an education. I came across a lot of girls in high school who were just simply S.H.O.C.K.E.D at my not being able to do typical teenage things: not dating, not going out with friends, parents picking me up everyday. I had a problem with it then, but not anymore. Am I 100 % happy with how things are? No, but the freedom-situation is lots better than it was in high school. I don't wish to run off with some guy, or get trashed at some frat party, those were just examples I was providing, albeit not such good ones.
When I posted, I was referring to how some people are astounded at my not being allowed to haev a typical "American" social life. Education was never an issue for me. Yes, if my parents were cruel enough to deny me education, then you are absolutely right and I agree with you. But education and having a social life are two different things and I think that is where most families run into problems, the right/privelege to have a social life. The basic stance of most parents, or mine anyway, is that we are only here (USA) to study, not to "have fun." Now you can't say that I can still go to the authorities for that..
