The meaning of Yahweh...

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *

Because:

  1. Jesus was prophesied as being God (Isa.9v5; 7v14)
  2. Jesus was called God according to his disciples (John.1v1)
  3. Jesus equated himself with God (John.8v58; 5v17)
  4. Jesus said he and God were one (John.10v30)
  5. People worshipped Jesus and he never corrected them (Matt.28v17)
  6. Jesus said he is the Almighty (Rev.1v8)
  7. Jesus is the Creator of all (John.Col.1v16)
  8. Jesus is the image of God (2Cor.4v4)
  9. Jesus will judge all that ever lived (John.5v22,27; Acts.10v42)
  10. The Tri-une God can only be understood if Jesus forms part of it.

BUT, no-where did Jesus use the exact words “I am God” as per the original Lajawab’s theory.

Jesus knew that the people understood he was equating himself with God and did not at any time try and dissuade them of the thought, silently accepting it as correct.

BTW, Christians don’t believe Jesus to be “a God” but part of the Almighty Tri-une God.
[/QUOTE]

Oldman,

I believe Jesus called himself the son of man.

If Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin.

Doesn't that confirm he was of the spirit of God?

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."Others who carried GOD's Spirit in them:

Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"

Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."

Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."

Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."

Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told
neither his father nor his mother what he had done."

Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."

Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."

1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."

1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."

1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."

1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."

1 Samuel 16:16 "Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better." GOD HAS AN EVIL SPIRIT??!!

1 Samuel 16:23 "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him."

1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD??!!

1 Samuel 19:9 "But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp,..." ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD??!!

1 Kings 22:23 "God sent LYING SPIRITS to lie to people" Does GOD lie?!

1 Samuel 19:20 "so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul's men and they also prophesied."

1 Samuel 19:23 "So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth."

2 Chronicles 15:1 "The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded."

Ezekiel 11:5 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind."

Ezekiel 37:1 "The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones."

Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."

."Now, why do we have to consider Jesus as the Creater of this Universe or someone who is equal to GOD just because GOD had put his spirit in Jesus, and not consider the many others who carried GOD's spirit above as equal to GOD?

What does the Noble Quran say about Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one God. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Noble Verse 5:110 "Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to
thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to
the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the
Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird,
by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou
healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the
dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee
when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This
is nothing but evident magic.' "

Noble Verse 15:29 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit,
fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Noble Verse 16:102 "Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to
strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims."

Noble Verse 17:85 "They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: 'The Spirit (cometh) by
command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O
men!)' "

Noble Verse 38:72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit,
fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Noble Verse 58:22 "Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those
who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons,
or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and
strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens
beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with
them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that
will achieve Felicity

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
What brought you to the conclusion that God decided not to create sons or daughters?

I think he did. And he did it for a good reason.

Reason being? Mankind.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus said: "I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28). This verse unequivocally refutes the claim by any one for Jesus being "co-equal" in status with his Father.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
But Changez_like,

Didn't God create us in his own image?
[/QUOTE]

This sentence also contains "create"... see :)

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Old Man, you are reading the verses out of context that is why they seem like they prove Jesus(PBUH) to be a God. Lets look at the context of each reference you gave. I will take all your 10 points in separate posts so that everything looks neat and systematic.

[QUOTE]
1. Jesus was prophesied as being God (Isa.9v5; 7v14)
[/QUOTE]

Chapter 9
In the following verses of Isa:9 some one is prophecised to be a God:
5.Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Please read verse 7 again. Jesus(PBUH) doesn't fit into this Prophecy. Jesus(PBUH) never reigned on any kingdom forget about establishing and upholding it with justice. So the above verses are not referring to Jesus.(PBUH)

Chapter7
13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.

First of all, Isaiah said that "God will give you A SIGN"(in verse 14). Isaiah didn't say" God will give you a GOD." So if you consider one sign of God to be God then you should also consider every sign of God to be a God.
In verse 15 it is stated that he will eat curds and honey when he can distinguish between right and wrong. Now, does this mean God doesn't know enough to distinguish between right and wrong until he eats curd and Honey.

So even these verses cannot be used to claim that Jesus(PBUH) is a God.

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[QUOTE]
2. Jesus was called God according to his disciples (John.1v1)
[/QUOTE]

1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Nothing mentioned about Jesus(PBUH) in this verse.

The Greek word for 'God' used in the phrase "and the Word was with God," is the definite form hotheos, meaning 'The God'. However, in the second phrase "and the Word was God", the Greek word used for 'God' is the indefinite form tontheos, which means 'a god'. Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Therefore, if the Word was a 'god' in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one. However, in Biblical language, the term 'god' is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as "god" in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God."
Moses is also referred to as "god" in Exodus 7:1, "And the Lord said unto Moses, 'See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."[32]

So according to your interpretation one should also consider the Satan And Moses to be God start worshipping them.

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[QUOTE]
3. Jesus equated himself with God (John.8v58; 5v17)
[/QUOTE]

JohnChapter8

58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Again Jesus never said that he was a God. He just said "I AM" and the Jews started stoning him.

This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth. The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur'aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: " Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.' "
Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, "23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there."

According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: "4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!"
In the Qur'aan, Chapter al-A'raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world.

"When your Lord gathered all of Aadam's descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: 'Am I not your Lord?' They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: 'We were unaware of this.' "

Consequently, Prophet Jesus' statement, "Before Abraham was, I am," cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God's knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

JohnChapter 5

17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

This verse is self explainatory. Just because God works and Jesus also worked doesn't mean that Jesus is a God. Every Messenger worked. Would that make every Messenger a God?

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[QUOTE]
4. Jesus said he and God were one (John.10v30)
[/QUOTE]

"I and the Father are one." (John10.v30)

Please read a few verses before verse 30:
23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade.
24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."

In verse 28 Jesus says that no one can snatch them out of my hand. In verse 29 Jesus says that no one can snatch them out of my fathers hand. Then in verse 30 Jesus says that I and my Father are one. The verses imply that both Jesus and God are one in purpose not one in person. Suppose I say that "My father cures the sick and I also cure the sick. I and my father are one." Does it mean that I and my father are one person. No it doesn't. It means that I and my father are one in purpose. Both of us cure the sick. But even if you want it to mean one in person, then no problem. Move forward to John17.v21. and v23 It says:

21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Here also the same "ONE" is used. So according to your interpretation, it means that God is in Jesus and Jesus is in all his 12 disciples. So that would mean that there are 14 Gods. 12 Disciples + 1 Jesus + 1 Father = 14 Gods.
That is why "One" refers to "one in purpose" not "one in person". Jesus says in this verse that all the 12 disciples should be one in purpose to Jesus just like Jesus is one in purpose to God.

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[QUOTE]
5. People worshipped Jesus and he never corrected them (Matt.28v17)
[/QUOTE]

There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which deny Jesus' divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as "O good master", saying: "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." If he rejected being called "good", and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: "The Father is greater than I." By stating that the "Father" is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: "I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God." Jesus' reference to God as "my Father and your Father" further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as "his God", he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.

In the Gospel according to Mark 13:31-32, Jesus is also reported to have denied having knowledge of when the final hour of this world would be, saying: "Heaven and the earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away, but of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in the heaven nor the Son but the Father." One of the attributes of God is omniscience, knowledge of all things. Therefore, his denial of knowledge of the Day of Judgement is also a denial of divinity, for one who does not know the time of the final hour cannot possibly be God.

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[QUOTE]
6. Jesus said he is the Almighty (Rev.1v8)
[/QUOTE]

Rev.1v8
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: "The Lord God says: 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.' " With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.

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[QUOTE]
7. Jesus is the Creator of all (John.Col.1v16)
[/QUOTE]

Col.1v16
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Again, Jesus never said this. The writer of COL.1v.16 said it. So now you are claiming that Jesus is a God on the basis of an unknown authour's claim???

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[QUOTE]
8. Jesus is the image of God (2Cor.4v4)
[/QUOTE]

2Cor.4v4:
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Once again, the above words are not of Jesus.

As to the word "image," God is not talking about a physical, human likeness. We are made in the spiritual image of the Beneficent. We are one with Him in attributes. The Holy Prophet Muhummed (p.b.u.h.) said, 'IMBUE THYSELF WITH DIVINE ATTRIBUTES." As Allah is Holy, we must be holy. As He is just, justice being his attribute, we must imbibe justice. As He is Merciful, we must portray mercy, and so on with each of the 99 attributes of God from the Book of Allah - The Holy Qur'an. None can be one with God physically, because He is not a physical Being. So every messenger was an image of God because every Messenger had attributes similar to God. e.g. Every Messenger was Truthful just like God is Truthful. Every Messenger was Merciful just like God is Merciful. Every Messenger was Just just like God is Just. Now will you consider every Messenger to be a God?

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[QUOTE]
9. Jesus will judge all that ever lived (John.5v22,27; Acts.10v42)
[/QUOTE]

Acts Chapter 10:
42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Once again, it is unfair to claim that some one is a God just on the basis of some one else's claim.

John5v22
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

Please read John 5v.30. It says:
"I can on my ownself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgement is just because I seek not my will but the will of the Father who has sent me.

This verse clearly says that Jesus could do nothing on his own, not even judging. He judged according to what he heard from The Father(as the Christians call Him). This also proves that Jesus was not God because he couldn't do anything without God's will.

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That is exactly why this concept of a Tri-une God is not present in the Bible. Infact, the word Trinity is never used in the Bible.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER,
the WORD, and the HOLY GHOST: and these three are one.”
1st Epistle of John 5:7

This verse is the closest approximation to what the Christians call their Holy Trinity in the BIBLE. This key-stone of the Christian faith has been scrapped from the RSV without even a semblance of explanation. It has been a pious fraud all along and well-deservedly has it been expunged in the RSV for the English-speaking people. But for the 1499 remaining language groups of the world who read the Christian concoctions in their mother tongues, the fraud remains. These people will never know the truth until the Day of Judgement. At this stage, let me remind you that THIS BIBLE (RSV), IS THE PRODUCT OF THIRTY-TWO SCHOLARS OF THE HIGHEST EMINENCE, ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS.

This is the link of the Bible I refer to. This link is of 1 John 5.

Please go to this link and read verse 7 and verse 8. Then read the Foot note. It says:

"5:7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century).
Even the the Bible doesn’t support the concept of a Tri-une God, implying that even the Bible doesn’t support the theory that Jesus is a God.

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Phew!!!

So the question still remains. Why do the Christians call Jesus(PBUH) a God when Jesus(PBUH) himself never called himself a God nor does the Bible call Jesus(PBUH) a God?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
I believe Jesus called himself the son of man.
[/QUOTE]

Correct, AAG (John.1v51). He was born of a woman, BUT he are many more times called Son of God (and not in the sense you and I might be children of God if we are believers).

I am not sure I understand the rest of your post, AAG. Could you elaborate please?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
Phew!!!

So the question still remains. Why do the Christians call Jesus(PBUH) a God when Jesus(PBUH) himself never called himself a God nor does the Bible call Jesus(PBUH) a God?
[/QUOTE]

:)

  1. *Please read verse 7 again. Jesus(PBUH) doesn't fit into this Prophecy. Jesus(PBUH) never reigned on any kingdom forget about establishing and upholding it with justice. So the above verses are not referring to Jesus.(PBUH) *

Jesus’ physically rule still to come (see Revelations). * But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of he Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; his kingdom will never end.”* - Luke.1v29-33.

  1. The Greek word for 'God' used in the phrase "and the Word was with God," is the definite form hotheos, meaning 'The God'. However, in the second phrase "and the Word was God", the Greek word used for 'God' is the indefinite form tontheos, which means 'a god'.

Unfortunately for you, ALL Greek scholars accept the grammatical accuracy of this translation. There is NO arguments against it except from sources that do not wish to accept that Jesus is part of God. None of these people are known Greek scholars. The words are En arxh 'hn 'o logos, kai logos 'hn pros ton qeon, kai qeos 'hn 'o logos.. The subject of the sentence is * Word *, the verb, * was *. There can be no direct object following * was * since according to grammatical usage intransitive verbs take no objects but take instead predicate nominatives which refer back o the subject, in this case, * Word *. It is therefor easy to see that no article is needed for * Theos * God, and to translate it “a god” is both incorrect grammar and poor Greek since * Theos * is the predicative nominative of * was *.

  1. JohnChapter8v58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Again Jesus never said that he was a God. He just said "I AM" and the Jews started stoning him.

Jesus could have used the words “Before Abraham was born, I was/existed”. He choose to use the words “I am”, same as God used speaking to Moses. This is why the Jews wanted to stone him. They KNEW what he was implying.

Your comment on John.5v17: Let’s read the following verse for more clarification: * Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only because he was breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his Father, ** making himself equal with God.***

  1. Suppose I say that "My father cures the sick and I also cure the sick. I and my father are one.

Jesus only said I and the Father are one. If you say “I and my father are one” people will laugh at you because it is impossible. Jesus said these words after stating * no-one can snatch them out of my hand*, including God the Father. He then state * no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand . Jesus’ argument is that the Son has the same almighty power as the Father, and consequently are one with him in essence and operation. In John 17 Jesus want’s all Christians to be one * in Spirit

  1. I note you accept that people worshipped Jesus.

  2. *With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus. *

No correction, dear Axiom! Both say the same. I see you believe the person speaking these words are God Almighty. Another person in the same chapter say * I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!* and compare it with * I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End....I, Jesus, have sent ** my** angel to give you this testimony* - Rev.22v13,16. Jesus claims to be the Alpha, Omega, First, Last, Beginning and End!

  1. unknown authour's claim

The author was Paul and I am answering the question: “Why do Christians believe Jesus to be Divine” - no strings attached.

  1. *”glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” - Once again, the above words are not of Jesus. *

:) Clutching at straws? Jesus ** is** Christ, who is the image of God, according to the verse. BTW, I only gave the tip of the iceberg in my 10 reasons, see also * He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God...* - Col.1v15, * The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the ** exact representation** of his being...* - Heb.1v3.

None can be one with God physically, because He is not a physical Being

Unless that person is part of God Almighty!

  1. *Once again, it is unfair to claim that some one is a God just on the basis of some one else's claim. *

I again state as above, ** the question is “Why do Christians believe Jesus to be Divine” - no strings attached.**. I see you accept that the Bible teach that Jesus will come to judge all.

*This also proves that Jesus was not God because he couldn't do anything without God's will. *

Jesus is subservient to the Father in the Tri-une God. He will ONLY do what he knows the Father wants. BUT all judging power has been given to him according to Jesus.

  1. That is exactly why this concept of a Tri-une God is not present in the Bible. Infact, the word Trinity is never used in the Bible.

The word “Trinity”, “Tri-une God” and other Christian theological words are used to denote a certain issue. A word does not HAVE to be in the Bible before we can use it.

*Even the the Bible doesn't support the concept of a Tri-une God, implying that even the Bible doesn't support the theory that Jesus is a God. *

Unfortunately for you and others, various passages of the Bible can only be understood by using the Tri-une God principle. It is first alluded to in Genesis chapter 1.

BTW> There are more than 10 reasons WHY Christians believe Jesus to be Divine. Unfortunately NO amount of reasoning will convince another to follow Jesus Christ as Saviour. It is only God’s Holy Spirit that pull and convince people. It is not my intention to convince people to join the Christian faith. I merely point out standard Christian thought/theology

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Here's a simpler explanation...Allah (SWT) said "Be"...And Jesus (AS) was...:)

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You say that Jesus’(PBUH) physical rule is still to come. So he must be called a God after he comes and fulfills the prophecy. So now you are calling him a God on the basis of what he MIGHT come and do in the future. Unless this prophecy is fulfilled, Jesus cannot be caaled a God. Right now, the prophecy is unfulfilled so you can’t call jesus a God right now.

I respect the fact that you intend to defend the Bible but please don’t try to decieve us by making false claims like these due to lack of knowledge. Read on to find out that there are many existing Bibles which translate this verse honestly..

  1. Mistranslation of the text:
    In the “original” Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), “The Word” is only described as being “ton theos”(divine/a god) and not as being “ho theos” (The Divine/The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine” (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).
    Similarly, in “The New Testament, An American Translation” this verse is honestly presented as
    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
    The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173
    And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of “God” we read
    “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God =the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”
    The Dictionary of the Bible by John McKenzie, Collier Books, p. 317
    In yet another Bible we read:
    “The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
    The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, by Dr. James Moffatt
    Please also see “The Authentic New Testament” by Hugh J. Schonfield:
    Now do you mean to say that these schoolars who wrote the correct translation of the verse have no knowledge of Greek. Or in other words, The schoolars who wrote the Bible are NOT KNOWN GREEK SCHOOLARS (as you put it).

If we look at a different verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, we find the exact same word (ho theos) that was used in John 1:1 to describe God Almighty is now used to describe the devil, however, now the system of translation has been changed:
“the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.”
According to the system of the previous verse and the English language, the translation of the description of the Devil should also have been written as “The God” with a capital “G.” If Paul was inspired to use the exact same words to describe the Devil, then why should we change it? Why is “The God” translated as simply “the god” when referring to the devil, while “divine” is translated as the almighty “God” when referring to “The Word”? Are we now starting to get a glimpse of how the “translation” of the Bible took place?

Well, what is the difference between saying “the word was God,” and between saying “the word was a god (divine)”? Are they not the same? Far from it! Let us read the bible:
“I have said, Ye (the Jews) are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”
Psalms 82:6:
“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh”
Exodus 7:1
“the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.”
2 Corinthians 4:4
What does all of this mean? Let me explain.
In the West, it is common when one wishes to praise someone to say “You are a prince,” or “You are an angel” ..etc. When someone says this do they mean that that person is the son of the King of England, or a divine spiritual being? There is a very slight grammatical difference between saying “You are a prince” and between saying “You are THE prince,” however, the difference in meaning is quite dramatic.
Further, it is necessary when translating a verse to also take into account the meaning as understood by the people of that age who spoke that language. One of the biggest problems with the Bible as it stands today is that it forces us to look at ancient Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures through Greek and Latin glasses as seen by people who are neither Jews, Greeks, nor Romans. All of the so called “original” manuscripts of the NT available today are written in Greek or Latin. The Jews had no trouble reading such verses as Psalms 82:6, and Exodus 7:1, while still affirming that there is only one God in existence and vehemently denying the divinity of all but God Almighty. It is the continuous filtration of these manuscripts through different languages and cultures which has led to this misunderstanding of the verses.
For this reason, a translator must not and should not “translate” in a vacuum while disregarding the culture and traditions of the people who wrote these words. As we have just seen, it was indeed quite common among the Jews to use the word “god” (divine) to convey a sense of supreme power or authority to human beings. This system, however, was never popularly adopted by them to mean that these individuals were in any way omnipotent, superhuman, or equal to the Almighty.

  1. Basic message of John:
    Now that we have seen the correct translation of the verse of John 1:1, let us go a little further in our study of the intended meaning of this verse. This verse was taken from the “Gospel of John.” The very best person to ask to explain what is meant by a given statement is the author of that statement himself. So let us ask “John” what is his mental picture of God and Jesus (pbuh) which he wishes to convey to us:
    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.”
    John 13:16.
    So the author of John tells us that God is greater than Jesus. If the author of this Gospel did indeed wish us to understand that Jesus and God are “one and the same,” then can someone be greater than himself? Similarly,
    “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”
    John 14:28.
    Can someone “go” to himself? Can someone be “greater” than himself?
    “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:”
    John 17:1.
    If John meant to tell us that “Jesus and God are one and the same” then shall we understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself “Self, glorify me so that I may glorify myself”? Does this sound like this is the message of John?
    “While I (Jesus) was with them in the world, I kept them in thy (God’s) name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
    John 17:12.
    If the author of John wanted us to believe that Jesus and God are one person then are we to understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself “Self, while I was in the world I kept them in your name, self. Those who I gave to myself I have kept …”? Is this what the author intended us to understand from his writings?
    “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
    John 17:24.
    Similarly, did the author intend us to interpret this as “Self, I will that they also whom I have given myself be with me where I am; that they my behold my glory which I have given myself, for I loved myself before the foundation of the world”?
    So, we begin to see that in order to understand the writings of a given author, it is necessary to not take a single quotation from him in a vacuum and then interpret his whole message based upon that one sentence (and a badly mistranslated version of that sentence at that).
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QUOTE]Jesus could have used the words “Before Abraham was born, I was/existed”. He choose to use the words “I am”, same as God used speaking to Moses. This is why the Jews wanted to stone him. They KNEW what he was implying.
[/QUOTE]

Jesus spoke just like God spoke. So now you are saying that anyone who talks like God is God?
Jesus TOLD that he wasn’t implying what they THOUGHT that he was implying.

  1. “Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,”
  2. “but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
  3. “The Jews answered him, saying : ‘For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself a God.’” (John 10:31-33).

The Jews Started Stoning Jesus because they thought that he was calling himself God. But Jesus told them that he was not equating himself with God, in the very next verse.

  1. “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods’?”
  2. “If he called them `gods,’ to whom the word of God came --and the Scripture cannot be broken–,”
  3. “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:34-36).

Jesus, continues: “If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called ‘gods’) and the scripture cannot be broken…” (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: “you can’t contradict me!” Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: “If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as ‘gods’ in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. ‘A son of God’ as against others being called ‘gods’ by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as ‘god’ in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me.”

Now why do you follow what the Jews THOUGHT and reject what Jesus(PBUH) SAID ?

Again the same thing. The Jews started stoning Jesus because they THOUGHT that Jesus was making himself equal with God even though Jesus TOLD them that he wasn’t making himself equal with God.(as shown above). In the verse Jesus’ words are:“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” Jesus never said that he was equal to God, the Jews THOUGHT that he was making himself equal to God. Jesus himself rejected this false THOUGHT of the jews (as shown above)

That is why the people laugh at the Christians when the Christians say that Jesus said “I and my father are one” because it is imposible (as you accepted yourself).

Jesus said that he is one with The Father
Jesus said that he is one with The Disciples.

The same “ONE” is used in the same context. You now have two options:

  1. Either Jesus is one in power with the almighty and the 12disciples, implying that their are 14 Gods.
    OR
  2. Either Jesus is one in purpose with the God and the 12 disciples, implying that there is only One almighty God.
    Select one of them and don’t keep Double Standards by saying that it is One in Power in the first case and One in Purpose in the second case.

Don’t you note that I also accept the fact that Jesus condemned those who worshipped him.

Even if Prophet Jesus peace be upon him claimed to be the “Alpha and Omega”, which by the way, this claim is only found in the book of Revelation in the entire NT, it still wouldn’t prove that he is the Creator of the Universe. Unlike the other Books and Gospels that contain repeated/similar quotes from Jesus in them that can be found in multiple Books/Gospels, this quote in Revelation 1:8 can not be found any where else in the Bible! "The book of Revelation is an unreliable book according to the NIV Bible’s Theologians:

“Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8)…In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922)”

So now you are claiming the divinity of Jesus on the basis of a book which is considered to be doubtfull even by the Christians Schoolars???

In fact The “Alpha and Omega” doesn’t even exist in the original Bible! It’s a lie that was later inserted by trinitarians. See the historical proofs in the article:

But anyway, let’s assume that Jesus peace be upon him did say this claim: that he is the beginning and the end. This still doesn’t prove anything because GOD Almighty has no beginning and no end! Yes, Jesus peace be upon him will come back to fight the devil and end all evil on earth, which makes him the END. And yes, when Jesus peace be upon him comes back to earth, his coming will be the BEGINNING of the end of all evil on earth. So Jesus during the end times can be indeed the BEGINNING and the END. The very fact that Jesus said that he is THE BEGINNING and THE END proves that he is not a God. Becuase a GOD has NO BEGINNING and NO END.