pakistan army if brave should declare
simla agreement is null and void
and fight india directly crossing loc
sending their proxies to fight is sign of weakness.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
*pakistan army if brave should declare
simla agreement is null and void
and fight india directly crossing loc
sending their proxies to fight is sign of weakness. *
[/quote]
hahaha look who is talking you are even worse, accusing us of every thing then running all the way to your new master dispite being 7 times bigger.
The trip to China was planned long before hindus discovered from the terrorist undies they were pakis
I have no respect for people who resort to gutter language, instead of arguig on the strength of their arguments. Alright, you want to play it dirty, lets get dirty.
The idiotic false bravado people had expressed when US decided to take on Afghanistan has been blown to a million pieces in the mountains of Afghanistan. The fanatic heroes, Talibaan, are no where to be found. Their leader is running for his life and their government has been dessimated to teethers. And still these people are somehow convinced that they can ignore the ground realities and pieces of crap like LeT and JM will be the saviors of Pakistan. Sitting in the western comfort, arm-chair critics keep ignoring the ground realities and not only delude themselves but also try to propagate their ideals that even with severe technological backwardness they will somehow suceed. Ask Talibaan to find out how does it feel when you see a 15,000 pound daisey cutter dropping on your head. Your LeT and JM will be running the fastest when the push comes to shove and you will be sitting in an appartment in the west, hoarsely crying on the top of your voice "gurreila war now!" "gurreila war now!"... Don't let me rake up the old threads here on Gupshup, where you guys were raising the slogans of America's graveyard in Afghanistan. Some eople just never learn.
And when a war breaks out, you can take your atom bomb and shove it whereever it will fit. Seriously.
And to think you have the right to call people who disagree with you as unpatriotic just proves how shallow your argument is.
MJ,
THere are countless Armchair Jihadis in GupShup. You should have known that by now.
You mentioned their boasts during Afghanistan bombing.
It is the latest one.
But you will find it instructive if you dig up the posts during Kargil
This is pure stupidity on the part of both nations. First, the terrorists attacking the Indian Parliment were most likely Pakistani supported Kashmiri separatists. Second, the Indians cannot initiate a war or a policy of "hot pursuit" into AK.
Now the foolish thing on the Pakistani part was allowing such an incident to even occur, with the international mood harshly (correctly) against terrorism. Even if we go by the idea that the Jihadi oufits are not under Pakistan's control, we should not forget that Pakistan can exert immense influence over them if it so chooses.
The foolish thing on the Indians part is the sabre rattling by the current government. If you would analyze the geo-political situation with the American bases in Pakistan, the Pak. Military on the western border, you will realize that the war hysteria is nothing but scare tactics on the Indian side. If there would be an assault on the LOC, the Pak. Military would have to shift it's forces blocking the entry of OBL/Al-Quaida from Afghanistan to Kashmir, which would not stand well with the IndoPak master (the US). So besides an escalation of rensions there is not much more the Indian side can do.
Meanwhile, it is the average Indian/Pakistani will continue to suffer. With the lack of education, healthcare, and standards of living both countries should not be in the war-posturing position that they are right now. Then again this is to fall on deaf ears as the governing elites would rather choose to whip up issues to divert their peoples attention from the main problem -- poverty. Remember poverty has no borders.
The man for whom law exists - the man of forms, the conservative -is a tame man.
- Thoreau
Remember poverty has no borders. <<
Well, Rajpufury, if you look a little closer at what’s happennning in Pakistani Mudrassas that produce these ‘volunteers’ for Jihad all over and ask your self where the funding is coming from, you will be concerned as a Pakistani.
More than a thousand of them went over into Afghanistan with neither the training nor the equipment. In some cases they were ditched by the locals.
It is these people that constitute the real danger for Pakistan.
THey could well take over the Pakistani state.
The reason anybody cares for Taliban is not because of it’s interpretation of Islam or treatment of citizens.Who cares?
The World stepped in when Afghanistan the STATE went over to OBL.
From all accounts he had a lot of say in the Governemnt.
I don’t think for a moment he can pull off something in similar in Pakistan though.
It is difficult to put this or any Genie back into the bottle.
And the Genie came out, not with the creation of Pakistan or India/Pakistan enmity, not with Afghan’s conservative Islam, but during the Afghan Jihaad when what was essentially a cold war political fight was given a religious color and the West cheered them on.
As for the rest yes, Kashmir is a problem.
But,
1.If you see what’s happened over for the past 50 or so years, it hurt both countries, Pakistan more than India if only because of it’s size.
2.The rest of the World is not ready to make Kashmir it’s problem. They don’t want another Palestine. Remember China stepped aside during Kargil.
It will be interesting to Watch Perveez
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
Mushraaf’s moves when the Jihadis override their ‘Controlers’ yet again.
What about your shmeness
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
Are you palnning to swing in the valleyes of Kashmir
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
Time will dictate losers or winners in the war.
What about kargil, at least your faces r black by the coffins Scandel
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
shame on your politicians who even did not let a chance to get out some through the cowards corpses
New Delhi planning tougher actions: Scrapping of Indus Treaty, suspension of overflights
By Jawed Naqvi
NEW DELHI, Dec 22: India described on Saturday its move to recall High Commissioner Vijay Nambiar from Islamabad as only the first step in a series of penal moves it planned against Pakistan , and officials said these could include the scrapping of the Indus Water Treaty and suspension of overflight facilities to Pakistani civilian planes.
Saying that Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee had hinted at harsh measures against Pakistan in parliament recently, Home Minister Lal Krishan Advani told a TV channel: "Recalling the envoy was only the first in a series of steps we propose to take in this matter."
He was quoted by The Hindustan Times as explaining the decision to recall Nambiar thus: "We said all options were open and we weighed the situation, took public perception into account and then took the decision, after the (cabinet committee on security) was briefed by the service chiefs and our intelligence agencies... All members were unanimous that Pakistan had to pay the price."
Interestingly US Ambassador Robert Blackwill has been quoted as telling some BJP MPs at a dinner he hosted for them that they should follow Vajpayee's approach to the crisis, understood to be a moderate in the otherwise hawkish BJP.
Advani denied that the government was divided. "We had to take action, which we have done. I want to make it clear that there are no hawks or doves in the government. We are all one. This constant refrain of differences between Atalji and me is simply not true," he told The Hindustan Times.
Pro-government defence analyst Brahma Chellaney was among several advocates of harsh penalties on Pakistan.
He wrote in the Hindustan Times: "India's first actions amount to nothing more than a slap on the Pakistani wrist, but the signal they send out internationally is unmistakable: New Delhi means business. A further downgrading of diplomatic relations is likely."
India's graduated approach, through a measured exercize of options, seeks to penalize Pakistan not through immediate application of force but through controlled non-military retribution in the form of gradual, modulated steps up the punishment ladder, analysts said.
Such is the degree of hostility towards Pakistan that no party barring the Left Front has come out to advocate moderation. BJP spokesman J.P. Mathur even slammed Islamabad's decision to keep its high commissioner in Delhi as an example of "ungraceful diplomacy." Communist Party of India and two other left groups said the government had taken Friday's decision without informing the opposition, a move that could recoil on its diplomatically.
Foreign Secretary S.K. Singh, who has been an envoy to Pakistan, said Vajpayee was opposed to the idea of hot pursuit of militants inside Pakistan. But, he added: "He has other options in mind. For instance, ending the Indus Valley Water Treaty and starving Sindh and Punjab, scaling down of the mission," Singh said. The Indus Water Treaty of 1960 governs the distribution of water from the Indus river and its tributaries between India and Pakistan.
"And when Pakistan has digested this, we can stop over flights. We don't need their airspace, they need ours," Singh was quoted by the newspaper today online daily as saying. There was also a suggestion that India take the case of the terrorist assault on the Parliament House to the United Nations.
"India will try to prepare a watertight case against Pakistan's involvement and take it to the United Nations," said Ajai Sahni, executive director of the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management, a counter-terrorism research body. "If the case is admitted in the United Nations, under the anti-terrorism Resolution 1373, Pakistan will be bound to follow the UN's instructions. Delegitimizing terrorism would be India's top priority," he said.
The final word on the current tense stand-off went to Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh who told reporters in Kabul that India's patience was not infinite. He described the decision to withdraw Nambiar as a signal to Pakistan to recognize the enormity of the crime.
"The step was only a signal, a message to Pakistan so that it recognizes the enormity of the situation," Singh said when asked about New Delhi's decision to recall Nambiar.
"India has been patient and waiting since Dec 13 for some kind of recognition from the Pakistan government about the enormity of the situation. Nothing of that sort came.
The issue was deliberated by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) at great lengths and it was decided to pull out India's High Commissioner to Pakistan," Singh said. He ducked a question when asked whether India was considering a military option to deal with the situation saying "I am not in Kabul to discuss such options."
Meanwhile the Press Trust of India reported intensified surveillance by the security forces along the border with Pakistan.
"We have launched intensified surveillance and monitoring operations in different areas of Kargil, Jammu, Poonch and Kashmir sectors in order to tackle any type of situation emerging on the border, particularly in Jammu-Poonch Sector," said a PTI report from Jammu, quoting sources. Even in remote areas the security apparatus has been beefed.
According to Border Security Force sources, the Army is taking up positions along the border in Rajasthan too, in a bid to thwart any adventure by Pakistan, even as BSF jawans are keeping a close watch on the movements of Pakistan Rangers across the border.
Cemented bunkers on the east bank of the Ganga Canal in Rajasthan, constructed before the 1971 Indo-Pakistan war, have been cleaned up and troops have taken up positions.
Troop movement was also observed in many of the villages in the state as the Air Force installed mobile radars at several places. According to a PTI report, the Ganganagar district has witnessing enhanced movements of defence goods for the last three days.
New Delhi is looking for a war - and unless things change drastically within the next 10 days - they'll get one.
Besides all the steps Pakistan has taken to respond - the Pakistan Army has also cancelled all leaves and air force pilots have been pulled from commercial duty as well.
We're ready for the dogs.Bring em on.
[This message has been edited by Yasir - (edited December 23, 2001).]
This war is being thrusted on us. We did not attack their parliament, they did, looking for an excuse to pick a fight with us when are forces are occupied on the Afghanistan front.
If this time war does break out, Pakistan must do the following on the first two or three days of the war:
1) Airlift a great many forces of our hoards of Mujahideen (LeT, Hizb, and others) coupled with some SSG, in C-130s, escorted by PAF, airdropped over to Srinagar for some bloody close-range combat with Indian Army and finally to occupy and hold Srinagar. Support of local population is virtually assured.
2) A simultaneous SSG/guerilla land assault from Azad Kashmir, infiltrating their way right over to Srinagar.
3) A third infantry assault coupled with armored support to move in the Jammu-Sialkot region to cut off Kashmir from the rest of India.
4) Indian infrastrucutre and road networks, especially those which connect Kashmir to the rest of India, should be bombed and rendered useless.
5) I wish we had something less powerful than a nuclear bomb, this way we could lay waste the entire Chicken Neck and Gurdaspur area, cutting off Kashmir from the rest of India, without actually gonig nuclear.
IMHO, we should aim at taking much of Kashmir this time. The problem must be converted to an opportunity.
I can sleep better if Pak Army thinks along the same lines as alizadeh2000.
It is the same thinking in 1948 and 1965 isn’t it?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
All I hear from the two sides it how they can 'kick some a$$' if the war breaks out ... neither the newspapers nor the 'highly intellectual politicians' want to say a word about how we can avoid an all out war!
I say freeze the whole state back for all I care and pay the pundit of New Delhi to kick Fernandez & Advani (you know where) so they may shut their mouth!
what a wonderfull thing to say i think we shoudl ask each side to consider what they are doing.
But if they do take harsh measures it will be a great way to send us both back into the stone age…
And please can all civilians stop posting their stupid military strategies what in god’s name is that all about.
How many of you people have seen combat or are commanders,generals,Army,Naval,Airforce officers if your not dont disscuss tactics.
Thankyou
The Indians have a long history of staging dramas. Here are some facts:-
The Staged Attack on the Indian Parliament
The Indians have staged another drama. In their frustration to have Pakistan declared as a Terrorist State they are willing to ‘cut off their noses to spite the face’. The latest such act was the ‘attack’ on the Parliament. Lot many questions are being asked and lot many doubts raised. The event reported by their own press makes very interesting reading. Here are some of the excerpts from The Hindustan Times:- (Italics-blue)
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/131201/dlnat125.asp
www.hindustantimes.com/Agencies New Delhi, December 13
“The suspected Lashkar terrorists entered Parliament in a white Ambassador (DL 3C J 1527) through the VIP gate. Displaying Parliament and Home Ministry security stickers, the vehicle entered with its siren blaring.
“The terrorists set off many blasts and reportedly used AK-47 rifles, RDX and Chinese-made grenades for the attack.”
“Mumbai Police Commissioner M N Singh said there was advance information about a possible attack and the government had already been alerted.”
“This is the last frontier”
Vajpayee in his short address to the nation declared the battle against terrorism has entered its last phase and would be fought in a decisive manner.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/131201/dLNAT28.asp
Top Stories
All six terrorists involved in Parliament attack dead: Mahajan AFP
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/141201/dlnat88.asp
Provocative remarks found on terrorists’ car sticker PTI New Delhi, December 14
“This is the property of Ministry of Home Affairs and nobody can stop this car,” wrote the terrorists in small-sized letters on the Home Ministry sticker pasted on the front windscreen of the white Ambassador car they used during attack on Parliament House on Thursday.
"Atal Bihari Vajpayee and L K Advani are Indians and we are going to kill them. They are friends of George Bush and our next target is George Bush, " the message read.
A police official said there were some spelling mistakes in the message written in english.
The car with red beacon light was used by the five terrorists to enter Parliament complex.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/161201/dLNAT15.asp
“Secrecy” was the key element in such operations as none of the batches except the final one had the knowledge as to why a particular task was assigned to them.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/141201/dLNAT15.asp
Terrorists were in guise of Black Cat commandos PTI New Delhi, December 13
Anybody could have mistaken them for Black Cat commandos. The bodies of strikingly fair and clean-shaven terrorists, which lay close to each other in a portico near the reception of the most-protected Parliament building, hardly looked like those of dreaded terrorists. One could hardly imagine that the tall boyish-looking terrorists could carry out such an attack.
A PTI correspondent, who saw the bodies, found them resembling young commandos. “But for the alert para-military forces, I am sure they could have stormed the Central Hall and God only knows what would have then happened,” said a para-military personnel.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/161201/dLNAT15.asp
According to informed sources, ISI, after facing some reverses, has been passing out “phased” diktats to the militants and maintaining secrecy of the plan to the last minute.
The actual militants, who were to carry out the suicide operation, arrived in the Capital only a day before to avoid any suspicion and vigil of the police.
“Secrecy” was the key element in such operations as none of the batches except the final one had the knowledge as to why a particular task was assigned to them.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/141201/dLNAT16.asp
Vajpayee warned last night about the attack
PTI Mumbai, December 13
Within 12 hours of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee speaking about the possibility of India becoming a target of terrorist attack unless the parties joined hands on the issue of national security, the Parliament precincts was witness to such an attack on Thursday morning.
Speaking at Pawar’s birthday celebrations last night, Vajpayee stated that the reports of possibility of blowing up of Parliament was based on real threats and “not figment of anyone’s imagination”.
Coming down on the Opposition stand of “opposing POTO in toto”, he said it was necessary for political leaders to rise above their political differences on these vital issues.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/141201/dLNAT03.asp
Militants planned to storm VIP entrances
PTI New Delhi, December 13
They said that a terrorist, who was shot dead as he was throwing a grenade at a gate normally used by Prime Minister, was heard saying “Pakistan Zindabad” before he fell down. As part of their plan, they utilised the confusion caused by a grenade blast to reach three other entrances to the building. Their plot was foiled as CRPF jawans challenged them at every gate.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/151201/dLREC02.asp
Indian TV audiences get their Sept 11
Poonam Saxena New Delhi, December 13
The world watched, stunned, when terrorists struck the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, American symbols of prosperity and power, on 11 September. And India watched, stunned, when terrorists struck Parliament, the most evocative symbol of Indian democracy, on unlucky 13 December.
The foreign news channels - BBC and CNN - which gave wall-to-wall coverage of the WTC attacks (the “biggest” story ever for them), treated the New Delhi attack as just another story, relegated to second lead after the
perennially-in-the-news Israel-Palestine developments. The terrorists responsible for the attack were termed “gunmen” by BBC and “intruders” by CNN. In its evening bulletins, the BBC made much of the “shocking, serious security lapse,” but didn’t say a word about the fact that the security personnel succeeded in preventing what could have been a horrifying catastrophe.
The foreign channels merely exposed their own irrelevance as far as the Indian viewing public is concerned. When it came to the attack on the heart of Indian democracy, it was the Indian news channels which gave a concerned and apprehensive nation the kind of detailed coverage it craved for.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/151201/newpam.asp
Car owner caught red-handed
Sumer Singh, resident of Sector 7, Rohini, was enterprising enough to get a sticker of Delhi Vidhan Sabha and a
magnetic red light for his Santro car. Singh was not authorised to put the beacon or the sticker on his car.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/161201/dLNAT06.asp
Parliament attackers tried to explode car bomb before being shot
Palash Kumar (AFP) New Delhi, December 15
“There was a wire coming out of the car,” a source involved in the investigations told AFP. “One of the terrorists was running with it and had tried to trigger the explosives but was shot dead before he could ignite it.”
The 30-metre wire was found near the bodies of one of the gunmen killed in the attack Thursday that left dead 12 people including the assailants. The car had around 30 kilogrammes (66 pounds) of “high explosives” kept in a steel cylindrical container normally used in Indian households to store grains.
Apart from the car bomb, each of the five attackers had a backpack full of explosives kept in steel boxes.
Each bag also had some dry fruits, binoculars, rope and batteries. Apart from the bomb, a grenade launcher, cell phones, two radio sets and a triggering device were also recovered from the car.
One of the assailants who was blown up likely triggered off the explosion himself, the sources said. Some reports had earlier said the gunman died when the explosives strapped on him were hit by bullets.
The gunman apparently triggered the explosion by setting off one of the grenandes, which completely blew off his hand along with the lower portion of his body. According to an expert, given the amount of explosives and the preparedness of the five attackers, it was “the biggest such operation of defusing and disposal of bombs in the history of India.”
Meanwhile, according to a report in The Hindustan Times, the attackers who entered the parliament complex in a white Ambassador car used by officials had scribbled on the vehicle’s VIP sticker: "This is the property of the ministry of home affairs and nobody can stop this car.
"(Prime Minister) Atal Behari Vajpayee and L.K. Advani are Indians and we are going to kill them. They are friends of (US President) George Bush
From the above reports the following picture emerges:-
-
Six men in commando uniforms, each having a backpack (the packs were so bulky and heavy that one of the
‘terrorists’ was seen falling over it) full of explosives kept in steel boxes. They had hand grenades, AK 47 rifles, rockets, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, binoculars, rope, wire, batteries. Six men with all this paraphernalia, in one Ambassador car. -
‘Secrecy was the key element’, yet they came with sirens blaring and VIP stickers reading “This is the
property of ministry of home affairs and nobody can stop this car”. “Atal Behari Vajpayee and L.K. Advani are Indians and we are going to kill them. They are friends of George Bush”. -
The P M was warned of the attack on Parliament 12 hours before the incident. He did not attend the session
and was told to stay away. He earlier came ‘down on the opposition stand’ of “opposing POTO in toto” . -
It was a well planned attack, yet the terrorists did not know where to go. The car turned left, then reversed
and abandoned. The terrorists climbed over the wall. The CRPF jawans challenged them at every gate. -
The bodies of terrorists ‘were fair and clean shaven’. But they arrived in the Capital only a day before. One
gets the impression that they were going to a party and not for some suicide mission.
Who could be employed for such missions? Read about India’s secret army in Kashmir in the following articles:
http://www.frontierpost.com.pk/articles.asp?id=1&date1=11/19/2001
India’s secret army in Kashmir
Mubarik Shah Updated on 11/19/2001 9:32:14 AM
The Indians do not talk of them. The world largely doesn’t know of them. The Kashmiris dread and hate them.
The Indian military lovingly calls them ‘Friendlies’. The Kashmiris scornfully brand them variously as ‘The Third Force’ or ‘Sarkari militants’ or ‘renegades’.
Respected watchdog Human Rights Watch (HRW) has, however, christened them as India’s Secret Army in Kashmir and profiled their wickedness and evil deeds in an exclusive 48-page startling report. They are former Kashmiri freedom fighters, coerced or seduced away from the resistance movement by the Indian military to be its hired guns and death squads to eliminate activists fighting its occupation of Kashmir.
http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1997/ma97/ma97oberoi.html
Once inside, we realized we were guests of the Jammu and Kashmir Ikhwan (“Brotherhood”), a counterinsurgent group funded by Indian security.
Why?
http://www.rense.com/general18/indiacallsonUS.htm
India Calls On US To Declare Pakistan A ‘Terrorist State’
(AFP) - Indian Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani will ask Washington to identify Pakistan as a “terrorist state” during a visit next month to the United States, he said in an interview.
That is the aim of Indians.
How desperately India wants to draw an equation and copy the US action!
Well, US vs Taliban is different from India vs Pakistan. Try it!
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by tshombe39:
** The Indians have a long history of staging dramas. Here are some more scenes from the drama:-
Indian Source http://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/kashmirlive/kl20011221.html
"Kashmir police appears clueless over Hamza
Pradeep Dutta
Jammu, December 20: The mystery shrouding the identity of Abu
Hamza, one of the slain militant involved in the Parliament House
attack further deepened with Kashmir Police chief refusing to having
received any militant of that name from the Thane Police.
On Wednesday, the Parliament House investigations got another
twist when Thane Police Commissioner Surendra Mohan Shangari
claimed that in November last year they had arrested four
Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militants of which one of them was named
Abu Hamza. "
Taken out from jail and sent on a wild goose chase and killed! Your dramas are just as bad as your films.
[quote]
Originally posted by tshombe39:
**
tshombe39 … have you ever heard the word hazizad before somewhere …
Its our Wits that make us MEN … ‘Braveheart’