The Mahdi

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

A1shah, the story you quoted from Quraan refers to men who went to cave-this happened MANY MANY MANY years efore coming of Mohammad(saw). How can you relate this to Imam Mehdi?

If those men were in caves and Allah saved them, does that mean it automaticaly applies that Imam mehdi's myth of being in cave is true as shias claim? Why follow conjectures and why play the guessing game? Please, don't quote verses from Quran telling me that this book doesn't have any doubt in it. Indeed it does not. I know. You don't need to tell me. You are not the only one reading it. So, don't put your burdon on those verses so that I might say oh wow, maybe they are right. I reason and think and look for facts, I don't use conjectures. If you read those verses, I am sure you are familiar with this:

Quran - Al-Imran, verse # 7.

It is he who has sent down to you, [oh mohammad], the book; in it are verses which are PRECISE - they are the foundation of the book - and others unspecified* As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecified, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] meaning except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "we believe in it. All [of it]is from our lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding,

*(those stated in such way that they are open to more than one interpretation or whose meaning is known only to Allah...)

So, you see verses like those fit clearly to what you are trying to say, using conjectures and unspecified verses in Quraan to prove your point and you interpret it in way that is exceptable to you and your religion/political/social needs.

Don't tell us stories from Quraan that happened at the time of Daud and Issa, tell us clearly where it says that Imam is in cave or will be in cave...etc. etc. If you don' have such proof, then just shut up with your rants and wait for him to come and we all will see how he does. Please.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"-juvenal

[This message has been edited by Spanky (edited December 03, 2001).]

22

Spanky,

First of all, please don't get excited. This is a forum discussion and we are here to exchange ideas.

It seems to me that you regularly forget what you write in yr previous posts, which is why you often get excited.

In your earlier post, you suggested that Imam Mahdi (as) was an ordinary individual, and as such we cannot apply standards of miraculous Ghaibat as is applied to Jesus (as) - who is a prophet (pbuh).

The verses from Al-Kahf were presented to show you that Allah (swt) has previously applied or given divine powers to people WHO WERE NOT PROPHETS / MESSENGERS.

The verses were not meant to prove the existence of Imam Mahdi (as).

Hope this is clear to you and everyone else.

I suggest you go back and re-read what I've posted and relate it to your previous post.

Also, if you want to discuss with me, please state correct shia beliefs. Imam Mahdi (as) is in concealment, just as prophet Jesus (as) is in concealment.

Imam Mahdi (as), like prophet Jesus (as), is NOT hiding in any cave. If you persist with your false lies regarding shia beliefs, I will not waste my time indulging in a futile conversation with you. I am not going to prove imam Mahdi is in some imaginary cave that some sunnis like yourself have concocted.

If you agree to the above, I will then proceed to explain to you - from the quran and sunna - the necessity of Imam Mahdi (as) & 2) his existence in Ghaibat.

Allah's (swt) blessings be upon our holy prophet (pbuh) and his sinless ahl-bait (as).

23

[quote]
Originally posted by Spanky:
**A1shah, the story you quoted from Quraan refers to 4 men who went to cave-this happened MANY MANY MANY years efore coming of Mohammad(saw). How can you relate this to Imam Mehdi?

**
[/quote]

Were there really 4 men. Let's see what the qur;an says:

18.22- سيقولون ثلاثة رابعهم كلبهم ويقولون خمسة سادسهم كلبهم رجما بالغيب ويقولون سبعة وثامنهم كلبهم قل ربي اعلم بعدتهم مايعلمهم الا قليل فلا تمار فيهم الا مراء ظاهرا ولاتستفت فيهم منهم احدا
(Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers.

Let's refrain from conjecture.

ws

24

A1shah,

Again, you gave no Quranic verses to prove that Imam Mehdi is alive and in presence of ALlah or wherever he is.

Saying that Allah performed his miracle on those men, then its obivious that he will apply same kind of miracle on Imam mehdi is wrong and using conjectures to prove a point. Which is not good and doesn't hold any weight as it is a assumption and not a fact.

Some QUestions: answer in short 2/3 lines:

Where was he born?
Who was his father?
Where will he 're-emerge' and save Muslims(or shias from taliban and sunnis)?

Me making mistake here in forum is nothing compare to the mistake and conjectures that shias want us to believe with regard to Imam Mehdi. I hope, Allah forgives me. Please present some facts, other wise don't waste your and my time.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"-juvenal

25

Spanky,

You seem to have trouble with reading.

I said I will proceed with proving from the qur'an the necessity of having Imam Mahdi (as) after you agree not to present false shia beliefs.

What didn't you understand ?

In addition, it was you, not I, who said that miracles cannot be applied to Imam Mahdi (as) since he was just an ordinary man. I proved from the qur'an that this is not the case.

Did I say that what applied to the people of the Cave applies to Imam Mahdi (as) also.

It is you who made fun of Mahdi (as) by talking about his age and where he got his food, etc.

Now, I am telling you once again - BEFORE WE PROCEED FURTHER, DO YOU NOW AGREE THAT ALLAH (SWT) HAS GRANTED DIVINE POWERS / MIRACLES TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN PROPHETS / MESSENGERS ?

If you don't, you are wasting my time.

And rest assured, the qur'an amply testifies to the existence of an imam at ALL TIMES.

ws

26

Go ahead, prove that Imam mehdi is alive, in presence of Allah from QURAN. Please no conjectures that this is this and that is why this is this way, no. It should be clear cut that Imams can be in presence of ALLAH and where is that?

I hope, you do not quote the verses regarding khizrr who also talked to Hazrat Musa.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

If possible answer my questions, please.

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal

27

Spanky,

I will take your response as an indication that you now agree with me that miracles can be granted by Allah (swt) to NON-prophets as well

I will prove from the qur'an why it is essential to have an Imam in existence at all times.

I will then draw from hadiths about who Imam Mahdi (as) is.

And as for you, please prove to me from the qur'an the concept of Imam Mahdi (as) that fits the sunni beliefs.

As far as where Imam Mahdi (as) or Jesus (as) is, this knowledge is with Allah (swt) alone.

ws

28

[quote]
As a sahih hadith in Muslim and Hanbal says, the holy prophet (pbuh) said "I am leaving behind two weighty things, the qur'an and the ahl-bait.
[/quote]

shah jee, you should know better than me there are three version of the same khutba.

One says Qur'an and Sunnah .. obviously dear to the Ahl-Sunna bunch

The other says Qur'an and Ahl-Bait .. which our Momin brothers and sisters adhere to.

The third being Qur'an alone.. which in my very humble opinion must have been the correct version.

So let's all agree to disagree.

btw, still waiting for that Qur'anic verse. Anyone?

29

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** shah jee, you should know better than me there are three version of the same khutba.

One says Qur'an and Sunnah .. obviously dear to the Ahl-Sunna bunch

The other says Qur'an and Ahl-Bait .. which our Momin brothers and sisters adhere to.

The third being Qur'an alone.. which in my very humble opinion must have been the correct version.

So let's all agree to disagree.

btw, still waiting for that Qur'anic verse. Anyone? **
[/quote]

PA;

I am not sure whether you believe in the sahih sittahs, but if you do, then you should know that the hadith talking about leaving behind the qur'an and the sunnah CANNOT BE FOUND IN ANY OF THE 6 SAHIH SITTAHS.

The hadith that talks of leaving behind the sunnah is the one recorded by al-Hakim in his al-Mustadrak, on the authority of Abu Huraira, attributing to the Messenger of Allah saying: "I leave amongst you two things that if you follow or act upon, you will not go astray after me: The Book of God and my Sunnah (traditions)."

There is no doubt that ALL Muslims are required to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). However, the question remains that which Sunnah is genuine and which one is invented later and was falsely attributed to the Prophet.

On tracing the source of this report of Abu Huraira which states "Quran and Sunnah," we found out that it has NOT been recorded in any of the six authentic Sunni collections of the traditions (Sihah Sittah). Not only that, but also al-Bukhari, al-Nisa'i, and al-Dhahabi and many others rated this report (Quran and Sunnah) as weak because of its weak Isnad. It should be noted that although the book of al-Hakim is an important Sunni collection of traditions, yet it is ranked inferior to the six major Sunni books. This is while Sahih Muslim is in the second rank among the six Sunni collections of traditions.

al-Tirmidhi reported that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version of the tradition is traced to 30+ companions. Ibn Hajar al-Haythami reported that he knows of 20+ companions witnessed that also. This is while the "Quran and Sunnah" version reported by al-Hakim has only one source!

Thus we must conclude that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version is much more reliable.

Moreover al-Hakim has also mentioned the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version in his book (al-Mustadrak) through several chain of authorities and confirmed that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version of the tradition is authentic based on the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

If you choose to believe in a weak hadith and ignore the tens of many hadiths from different chains of narrations telling us thet the holy prophet (pbuh) talked about the QURAN AND AHL BAIT as our two sources of savior, then that is your choice.

If you choose not to believe in any hadith just because there are other weak or fradulent hadiths present, then you are not doing your Due Diligence, but are just running away from the truth.

PA, let me ask you this - How are you so sure that you are following EVERY INSTRUCTION / COMMANDMENT in the holy qur'an as was understood by our holy prophet (pbuh) ?

I ask this because it seems that you do not require guidance from anyone else, the qur'an being sufficient for you.

30

[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
ok now, youre scaring me. Listen, I don't know if this stuff is for real or not, not exactly learned when it comes to my religion so if somebody could clarify if this is true that'd be nice. Something new I learned today.
[/quote]

It comes down to a matter of what different sects believe.

The Shia school of thought maintains it as a core belief that the Imam Mehdi will return to lead the Muslims. Their belief is that he is currently alive and is hidden.

The majority of the scholars of the Sunni school of thought also believe in the return of the Imam Mehdi. However, they believe that he will be born in the future like other men. I am a Sunni who subscribes to this belief.

However, a number of Sunni scholars deny the concept of the Imam Mehdi, and state that it is an idea that has crossed into Sunni Islam from Shia Islam. Evidently yB follows this viewpoint.

Hope this clears things up.....

31

A1shah,

“I will take your response as an indication that you now agree with me…”

What is up with you man? What is up with your indications and conjectures? Why do you assume that if I did or acting in certain manner that it autometically apply that I meant what you WANT me to mean? Did I say, I agree with you in this whole thread? No, I did not, and I will not unless you stop using conjectures and guessing and indications of so and so and then so and so to prove your point and to validate your meaningless argument. And go ahead, don’t worry about me. Lay the truth out here and prove from Quraan about Imam Mehdi, it should be clear cut, no guesses or indications. Please.

Prophet asked us to follow Quraan and his sunnahtt(traditions). ALbieth are humans and they also make mistakes and are easily led astray. Now adays so called syeds are doing some bad stuff out there, most girls in film industry are from shah or syed families.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal

32

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**In order for you to unlock the treasures of the qur'an, you need to ask someone who understands the quran, as the qur'an says:

These are none other than the ahl-bait (as) who are the guides for the holy prophet's (pbuh) ummat.

As a sahih hadith in Muslim and Hanbal says, ....**
[/quote]

I agree with your first statement, which is a statement of fact. Your second statement is the contention of shia school of thought only. What you are mis-stating here and then contradicting yourself later by quoting th esahih hadeeth is that the person who understood the Qur'an best was Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). So it is his Sunnah (the ahadith) that tell us what the Lawgiver wants us to do and how.

**
[quote]
the holy prophet (pbuh) said "I am leaving behind two weighty things, the qur'an and the ahl-bait. Hold to both of them tighty for they will lead you to the fountains of kauser".**
[/quote]

This hadeeth is fabricated and the term ahl-e-bayt is incorrectly applied by shias. The hadith includes 'Qur'an and my Sunnah', which (Sunnah) is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence. Do you have any doubts on this?

And the family of the daughter cannot be ahl-e-bayth. The term covers members of the household and could be stretched to the descendents through sons, not daughters.

**
[quote]
Alas, the majority upheld the holy book only, making up meanings of the verses as it suited their purpose.**
[/quote]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

The majority is known as Sunnah wal Jama'at. Do you know what this means and implies? Don't make statements that are so incorrect, specially in this month as you are exposing yourself to Allah's wrath.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

33

This topic has been discussed many times on this forum and in our daily lives as well, some holds the belief that He has already come, some says he is hiding somewhere (like usama) and some still awaiting.

No matter what sect of Islam one follows, one thing is common to all – they all hold the belief of the coming of the Promised Imam Mahdi.

While discussing this topic some questions always clicks up and remain unanswered. May be someone can help me out (without quoting ahadiths – Only Quran is acceptable)

  • First, why will he come? To my understanding, definitely there is need of a reformer that’s why his advent is prophesized. There will come a time when all the Muslims were scattered into several sects and everyone claims that their sect is the righteous one. In fact those who accept and follow the Imam Mahdi will among the righteous.

  • Secondly, why it is mandatory to belief in Him?, For sure it’s the message of Rasool Allah(saw) to accept the Imam Mahdi and convey His salutation. Definitely a person to whom Holy Prophet(sa) convey his salam and assign such a revolutionary task cannot be an ordinary person. So believe in him is must.

  • ** Third, will he be an ordinary man?**, NO, he will be appointed by Allah (and not picked up by general election). He will receive revelation. And anyone who is appointed by Allah and receive revelation cannot fall in the category of ordinary person.

Unfortunately majority of the Muslims believe that he will be an ordinary man and an ordinary Imam like the imam of mosque. On the other hand Quran chalks out the guideline who to BELIEVE in. the verse says “aamantobilahay wa malaykatay he wa kotobay he wa rosolay he” i.e to believe in Allah, the Angles, the Books and the Messengers.

So according to list above as prescribed by Allah, among humans only Messengers are meant to be accepted and believed in. Do you still think that Imam Mahdi will be an ordinary man?

If yes than WHERW WILL YOU CLASSIFY AND STAND YOUR IMAM MAHDI IN THE LIGHT OF QURAN?

Further more there is verse in the Quran (I don’t remember right now) where Allah has addressed all the Messengers as Imam Mahdi of their time. So to me this Imam will not be an ordinary Imam, he will be a Prophet and nothing less otherwise believe in him is not a MUST.

Jazakallah.

34

Mehdi and Jesus (a.s.)
By: Hazrath Moulana Abul Fatah Syed Nusrath Tashrifullahi

The last of all prophets of God, Muhammad, May Allah bless him and give him peace, made a very significant prophecy when he said that: -

“How can my Ummah perish when I am at it’s beginning, Jesus, son of Marry, at its end and the Mehdi from my progeny will be in the middle of it. But in between this, there will be a large detracted group. Neither I belong to them nor they belong to me.”

The above tradition has been quoted in Musnad of Imam Ahmad from Ibn Abbas (RZ), by Abu Nu-aym Isphahani from Ibn Abbas, in Kanzul Ummal from Ali, in Mishkat and it’s commentaries Mirqat and Lumu-at from Imam Jafar and Razeem, by Hakim from Abdullah Ibn Umar (RZ), and in Tafseer-e-Madarik with some variance in words.

The tradition elucidates the following:
(i) that Mehdi (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) are not one and the same person as a group tries to make people believe;
(ii) that they will not come or live at the same time, one being in the middle and the other at the end of the Ummah;
(iii) that they would be saviors of Ummah in the middle and the end of it as the Prophet (pbuh) himself was at the beginning;
(iv) Imam Mehdi (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) would follow the Prophet as saviors. This means that they would be Caliphs of God and hence free from error and that their guidance too would be free from flaw. http://www.promisedmehdi.com/mehdijesus.htm

so they wont be at the same time as some ppl claimed that jesus AS will pray behind Mehdi AS

35

Originally posted by FactFinder:

[quote]
**

This hadeeth is fabricated and the term ahl-e-bayt is incorrectly applied by shias. The hadith includes 'Qur'an and my Sunnah', which (Sunnah) is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence. Do you have any doubts on this? /]
[/quote]

Where does the sunna comes form? Companion? Wellf or shia’s this is from ahlul bait.

[quote]
*And the family of the daughter cannot be ahl-e-bayth. The term covers members of the household and could be stretched to the descendents through sons, not daughters. *
[/quote]

umm bro, why jesus is called in Quran isa ibn Maryum? How descendents stretched through daughter? R u saying Jesus (pbuh) is not desendent of Abraham?

36

WHAAAAAAAT? Thandey, did you browse that site thoroughly?

Look:
Syed Mohammed (A.S.) was born on 14th of Jamadi-ul-Awwal 847 H, (Sept. 9, 1443 AD) at Jaunpur (India) which was, at that time, a famous center of Muslim scholars. He stands 19th in the lineage of Ali Ibn Abu-Talib and descends from Imam-e-Hussain (R), the grand -son of Prophet Mohammed(S.A.S).

REALLY?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif

The site is not Islamic but a fake one, it does not give any references from Islamic books, all it does it talk talk and claim this and claim that. I would stay away from it.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Please read this, with references:

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

After the death of a Ruler there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madina) and go to Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad and Maqaame Ibraheem, and forcefully pledge their allegiance to him.

Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.

On seeing this, the Abdaals of Shaam as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat.
(Abu Dawood)

A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.
(Sahih Muslim)

According to these reliable, authentic, and universally accepted narrations, Mahdi will:

Be from among the family of Prophet(SAW), among the descendants of Fatima(RA);
Have a broad forehead and pointed noise;
Appear in one night;
Appear just before the day of judgment;
Have same name as hazrat Muhammad(SAW);
Escape from Madina to Makkah where people will pledge allegiance to him;
Receive pledge and help of Iraqi people;
Fight in battles;
Rule over the Arabs for seven years according to Sunnah;
Spread justice and equity on earth;
Eradicate tyranny and oppression;
Lead a prayer in Mekkah which Jesus(pbuh) will follow in;
NOT be the same individual as the Promised Messiah (Jesus).

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”-juvenal

37

[quote]
Originally posted by iqra_786:
**Originally posted by FactFinder:
umm bro, why jesus is called in Quran isa ibn Maryum? How descendents stretched through daughter? R u saying Jesus (pbuh) is not desendent of Abraham?

**
[/quote]

You have used the quotations in different form so your first response does not appear. But my response is that the Sunnah does not come from the companions (radhi Allaho anhum). It comes from Rasool Allah. The companions were just the narrators of what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears.

What the shias have is fabrications of sayings by the Imams who were born after the Prophetic period. Can you quote me the book that you refer to and is equivalent of Sahih Bukhari.

Your reference to Eesa (alaihe salam) shows the depth of your thinking and debating skills. The only person who was born without the intervention of a male is your only example to justify that he was descendent fom Ibrahim (alaihe salam) through his mother. How else could he be? But that is not reason enough as exceptions never be offered as examples.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

38

Imam Mahdi Was mentioned in the hadith of Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wassallam.

But asking, if he or she will be from the shia sect is answered by the hadith (that is there were no shia when the Prophet said the hadith). Imam Mahdiy will be the kahlifah of ALL Muslims, and Shia will stand behind him as well as Sunnah, Where they unitedly will fight those who misguided and astrayed.

Have you ever thought of it, Maybe he will justify the differences between perhaps shia and sunnah..?

39

Sheraz Bhayya,

That will certainly not be the first time that a collection has contradictory Hadiths.

When you blindly trust narrators and have no means of ascertaining the truth except by asking people or reading about how 'popular' or 'righteous' was someone who narrated it, this happens.

40

hain..where..i could not find this in that site..but i will take ur word and consider it unislamic..but i first of all didnt say that i dont believe in mehdi AS..all i said that he wont be in the same time as Essa AS…atleast thats what i got from the hadiths…can u give some hadiths regarding to this matter…jazakallah…