The Infinite Loop of the Rafida

[Al-Muthanna]

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

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That's what your problem is. You don't understand the context in which it was said, and make it all general.
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Did you read the context?

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It is Tussi's personal opinion. And Tussi is neither a prophet nor Imam.
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Now you are contradicting yourself. first you try to argue that I only left out the context and that Al-Tussi surely meant what you are trying to imply, and when I present you the context like this narration, you call this his own opinion. Well, you have to decide. It can't be both.

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What's the problem with you man? Why can't you differentiate between "lying" and "being wrong"?
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I do differentiate, but obviously you don't. Al-Tussi isn't saying: "It is my opinion that we shouldn't do Tafsir any verses except based on narrations."

No, he is stating that this statement is based UPON OBVIOUS NARRATIONS OF "OUR" COMPANIONS. So either he is lying when he says that these narrations are obvious, or you have no clue.

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So Tussi is talking about "tafsir" or interpretation. And as Quran says, only those verses require interpretation which are mutashabeh. Hence Tussi is talking about mutashabeh verses.
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Where does Quraan say that? And please tell me why are ther books of TAFSIR for the whole Quraan? According to you, there should be only Tafsir for the unclear verses. :)

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a al-Houda

[1010]

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*Originally posted by Al-Muthanna: *
Did you read the context?
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I did. And I saw that you like to conclude on your own, without asking first.
Let me say it again: Clear verses don't need interpretation, as Quran says, simply because they are "clear".

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Now you are contradicting yourself. first you try to argue that I only left out the context and that Al-Tussi surely meant what you are trying to imply, and when I present you the context like this narration, you call this his own opinion. Well, you have to decide. It can't be both.
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Now you again need spoon-feeding.

First I argue that you are taking Tussi's statements out of context. And it was about the part where Tussi says that the interpretation of mutashabeh aayat is only known in full to Allah, prophet, and Imams.

Then I argue that you can't differentiate between "being wrong" and "lying". And when I said that then I was referring to this part of Tussi's conclusion about mutashabeh aayat (not clear ones).

"THAT IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK FROM ONE'S OPINION".

We can try to interpret mutashabeh verses as well, but won't be sure, because the real and full interpretation is known only to Allah, Prophet and Imams.

Hope you understand it now.

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I do differentiate, but obviously you don't. Al-Tussi isn't saying: "It is my opinion that we shouldn't do Tafsir any verses except based on narrations."
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Tussi does not need to say it. Everyone knows it is his conclusion. When I write a book and give my opinion about something then it is based on my own knowledge and my own conclusions. It is not necessary that what I say is absolutely accurate. I might have made some unintentional errors due to some reason.

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No, he is stating that this statement is based UPON OBVIOUS NARRATIONS OF "OUR" COMPANIONS. So either he is lying when he says that these narrations are obvious, or you have no clue.
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Oh Gosh! Dear dear.

Why can't you understand Musanna that his conclusions could be wrong?

Why do you think Tussi is the one who made some fiqh? Why can't you understand that he was just one of the thousands of ulema? Do you think ALL ulema had one voice about EVERY issue? NO.
Read again. Any aalim, no matter how big his status is, is bound to make some unintentional mistakes, because he is not masoom. Now you can not call such unintentional mistakes to be lies. Those were just errors.

And to make this little thing understandable to somebody like MUSANNA (gosh!), I gave examples of Sunni stance on Aisha and Muawiya's battle with the Rightly-guided Caliph of their time.

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Where does Quraan say that? And please tell me why are ther books of TAFSIR for the whole Quraan? According to you, there should be only Tafsir for the unclear verses. :)
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I said only the tafsir of THOSE verses are fully known which are mutashabeh.

[1010]

There is another problem with Musanna. He likes to pick a sentence from some scholar, and thinks that everyone endorses his conclusion. For example, he picks up Tussi's conclusion and believes that this conclusion is accepted by everyone.

Another problem with Musanna is that he calls wrong conclusions of those scholars to be lies. He can't differentiate between a "wrong conclusion and a lie". And he won't comment when someone mentions Aisha and Muawiya's battles with Khalifa e Rashid.
If Musanna calls conclusions of some scholars "lies" then what would he call the wrong battles of Aisha and Muawiyah? These battles resulted in thousands of Companions dying on both sides. And person responsible for this loss did more wrong than mere "lies" of those scholars. Would Musanna call it "criminal acts" or "wrong conclusion/decision" of those people?

[Al-Muthanna]

Assalamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda,

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I did. And I saw that you like to conclude on your own, without asking first.
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Perfect! Bring the context and prove that the sentence I translated refers to unclear verses!

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First I argue that you are taking Tussi's statements out of context. And it was about the part where Tussi says that the interpretation of mutashabeh aayat is only known in full to Allah, prophet, and Imams.

Then I argue that you can't differentiate between "being wrong" and "lying". And when I said that then I was referring to this part of Tussi's conclusion about mutashabeh aayat (not clear ones).

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He doesn't say that in the sentence I translated, he simply says:

"Know that the narrations in the reports of our companions are obvious that it is NOT ALLOWED TO DO TAFSIR EXCEPT WITH THE AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS BY THE PROPHET (SAWS) AND THE AIMMAH (RA), whose statements is a Hujja like the statements of the Prophet (saws), AND THAT IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK FROM ONE'S OPINION." (Al-Tibyan, Vol. 1, P. 4)

I see no mentioning for the unclear verses at all. But surely you will bring the context and prove that he was only talking about them. And you still failed to explain why first you declared without any proof that he was referring to the unclear verses and when I tell you what he added to this sentence (namely that narration), you say that's his own opinion. Well, why didn't you refer this narration to the unclear verses as well? Seems you don't know what to say anymore.

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Tussi does not need to say it. Everyone knows it is his conclusion. When I write a book and give my opinion about something then it is based on my own knowledge and my own conclusions. It is not necessary that what I say is absolutely accurate. I might have made some unintentional errors due to some reason.
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That's fine, but when you say the narrations are obvious about something, then you aren't talking about your own opinion anymore, rather you are claiming there are clear narrations that support your view. If that's not the case, you would be lying.

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Why do you think Tussi is the one who made some fiqh? Why can't you understand that he was just one of the thousands of ulema? Do you think ALL ulema had one voice about EVERY issue? NO.
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So now suddenly it's an error again? Didn't you claim that the quote only refers to unclear verses, if that's the case then why should he be wrong according to your own logic? And the self-contradictions pile up...

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I said only the tafsir of THOSE verses are fully known which are mutashabeh.
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You argued that Tafsir is only necessary for the unclear verses. Just read what you wrote:

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"This is what Tussi said:

"Know that the narrations in the reports of our companions are obvious that it is NOT ALLOWED TO DO TAFSIR EXCEPT WITH THE AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS BY THE PROPHET (SAWS) AND THE AIMMAH (RA)..."

So Tussi is talking about "tafsir" or interpretation. And as Quran says, only those verses require interpretation which are mutashabeh. Hence Tussi is talking about mutashabeh verses."
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So you seem to believe that since Al-Tussi is speaking about Tafsir, he MUST have had unclear verses in mind, thus you are claiming that Tafsir is only done for unclear verses. Therefore I wonder why are there books of TAFSIR for the whole Quraan? According to you, there should be only Tafsir for the unclear verses. :)

wa salamu 'ala man itaba'a Al-Houda