Re: The India democracy - ‘by the people’ again? …
So one has to wonder how effective Gandhi’s tactics are. You could starve yourself to death, but unless everyone else agrees with you, and supports your cause, your just going to die alone.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^That made me laugh Med911. Good logical argument. As for Gandhi, I admire him to an extent; he led a valiant fight against British imperialism. However, he was a supporter of 'non-violent anarchism' and was undoubtedly naive when it came to violence. Although he had been opposed to partition, the emancipation of the subcontinent as a whole did not come about without a good deal of violence; his belief that violence would be kept to an absolute minimum shows a lack of understanding of how great shifts occur in history. Deluded is more like it, to believe that non-violence can solve everything, a good person and a sane person will rationalize that it needs to be a bit of both. And history is witness to these kind of revolutions. And as for not eating, i think this individual is harming his own health and believe that whatever his concerns and issues are..must be heard.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
So one has to wonder how effective Gandhi's tactics are. You could starve yourself to death, but unless everyone else agrees with you, and supports your cause, your just going to die alone.
You really think one Gandhi fasting had the effect that it did on the Britishers ? If it hadn't created a mass movement, nothing much would have happened. Otherwise we would have every single person with a grouse against the govt going on hunger strike, and the govt would be bending over backwards to accomodate him.
Same thing happened a few days ago, with masses supporting Anna Hazare and forcing the govt to give in.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^That made me laugh Med911. Good logical argument. As for Gandhi, I admire him to an extent; he led a valiant fight against British imperialism. However, he was a supporter of 'non-violent anarchism' and was undoubtedly naive when it came to violence. Although he had been opposed to partition, the emancipation of the subcontinent as a whole did not come about without a good deal of violence; his belief that violence would be kept to an absolute minimum shows a lack of understanding of how great shifts occur in history. Deluded is more like it, to believe that non-violence can solve everything, a good person and a sane person will rationalize that it needs to be a bit of both. And history is witness to these kind of revolutions. And as for not eating, i think this individual is harming his own health and believe that whatever his concerns and issues are..must be heard.
Yes, while I admire Ghandi, I wonder whether his ideas really are as practical in real terms as they are on paper. I suppose his effectiveness was due not to his tactics as to him as a person. He could have used any means of protest, and still had the impact on the people, because of his personality.
Personality, charisma, etc, are perhaps is more important then how you use it.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
You really think one Gandhi fasting had the effect that it did on the Britishers ? If it hadn't created a mass movement, nothing much would have happened. Otherwise we would have every single person with a grouse against the govt going on hunger strike, and the govt would be bending over backwards to accomodate him.
Same thing happened a few days ago, with masses supporting Anna Hazare and forcing the govt to give in.
So if Ghandis fasting started a mass movement, as has Hazaras recently, why not in the case of the woman fasting in protest for ten years now?
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
So if Ghandis fasting started a mass movement, as has Hazaras recently, why not in the case of the woman fasting in protest for ten years now?
Thats a question for her fellow Manipuris - why don't they support removal of AFSPA ?
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
Thats a question for her fellow Manipuris - why don't they support removal of AFSPA ?
I dont know what the AFSPA is nor do I care.
Im speaking in general terms... Whats the point of fasting anyway, if the intended effect is only dependent on how many people actually support the cause?
My question is, you guys cite Ghandi and his principles in the perceived success of Hazare. But how relevant is Ghandi in all this when it obvious that its not the fasting that moved you or your govt to support Hazare, but simply the fact that his struggle is something you support, and many others including the media got behind...
Re: The India democracy - ‘by the people’ again? …
New Delhi: Irom Sharmila Chanu and Anna Hazare have one thing in common – the ability to fast indefinitely for what they perceive is right. But the similarities end there.
She has been on a political fast for 11 years but her silent resilience moves you when you realize the sheer magnitude of what she is single-handedly trying to achieve.
Far from the glare of studio lights of television channels and tangled wires of a hundred microphones, in the hilly haven of Manipur, Irom Sharmila Chanu has launched a movement that has found resonance with her people. The Manipuris have christened her Menghaobi or ‘The Fair One.’
In and out of jails for the past 11 years, Manipur’s ‘Iron Lady’ Sharmila has a tube running down her nose as the government alternately force feeds her and incarcerates her for attempting to take her own life through her hunger strike.
Manipur is far removed, in more ways than one, from the political nerve centre of the national capital. But Irom is not a stranger to Jantar Mantar in the heart of Delhi, where she herself has launched a series of protests in the past to seek the repeal of a law that gives the state army draconian powers.
Though a recipient of many awards and international commiseration over her iron resolve to fast unto death unless the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (1958) is repealed, Sharmila’s movement has somehow failed to capture the imagination of India’s burgeoning urban middle-class who can better identify with issues that affect their lives directly.
Veteran activist Anna Hazare launched a similar fast unto death on April 5, 2011 at the Jantar Mantar for tougher anti-graft legislation which had drawn the support of thousands.
Hazare’s demands for a bill that gives an independent ombudsman police-like powers to prosecute ministers, bureaucrats and judges had tapped into widespread public anger over a spate of graft scandals that tarnished the country’s image.
The image of Hazare’s apparent frailty as he camped on a thin mattress in the afternoon sun in a street-side platform at the protest ground was captured by Indian photojournalists and replicated the world over as a septuagenarian’s lonely struggle to rid bureaucracy of corruption.
The image tugged at the heart strings of thousands of Indians fed up with the scourge and exploded into a social network-driven mass movement hijacked by political opponents and celebrities.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, under tremendous opposition pressure, agreed to discuss the Jan Lokpal bill when parliament next convenes in July. He also gave in to Hazare’s demand for activists to join officials in drafting the bill.
Why has Hazare’s movement been a success?
So why has Hazare’s populist movement succeeded in eliciting a speedy response from a sluggish government machinery when Sharmila’s didn’t over 11 years?
It has much to do with the fact that corruption as a broad subject is easier understood by the Indian middle class than an obscure martial law that is perceived to have no bearing on the lives of the majority of people.
Hazare’s ‘people’s protest’ also came at a time when India’s wired urban middle and upper middle classes are undergoing a radical transition. With more households connected to internet in 2011 than ever before, Indians are embracing social networking to exchange, disseminate and process information - a powerful tool that came after Sharmila’s time.
The media has had a field day while covering Hazare’s protests, endorsed by celebrities - from glamorous film stars, sports personalities and socialites to relationship experts and politicians - faces that cemented the tottering campaign into a David vs Goliath battle against graft.
The national media has been largely silent about Sharmila’s crusade against AFSPA in one of India’s most resource-rich but remotest corners whose people often complain of apathy and neglect from the central government.
Why has the Centre ignored Sharmila?
The government’s quick acquiescence to Hazare’s demands while ignoring Sharmila’s, bears testimony to the geo-political importance (or lack of it) of the North East in a country where caste divides can shift the balance of power.
A populist movement ahead of crucial Parliamentary election is harder for the government to ignore.
AFSPA has been imposed in Manipur and most of the Northeast since 1980. It allows the army to use force, shoot or arrest anyone without warrant on the mere suspicion that someone has committed or was about to commit a cognisable offence. The Act also prohibits any legal or judicial proceeding against army personnel without the previous sanction of the Central Government.
Sharmila, who has been unable to convert her localized crusade into a national movement, says the martial law did not help curb insurgent groups as was intended to, but has sparked a seething resentment among the people of the North East.
An irregular access to national media, apathy from a justice system overburdened with pending political cases, political incarceration and a thorny subject – may have worked to relegate Sharmila crusade since November, 2000 to the backburner.
But to say she achieved nothing would be injustice to Sharmila’s tremendous personal sacrifice.
Under intense pressure, the government in 2004 constituted a five-member committee under the Chairmanship of Justice B P Jeevan Reddy, a former Supreme Court judge. The committee was to review the provisions of AFSPA and advise the Government on whether to amend the provisions of the Act to bring them in consonance with the obligations of the government towards protection of human rights; or to replace it with a more humane Act.
Although the government hasn’t taken any concrete action on the findings of the Reddy committee that suggested, among other things, the repeal of the Act, it helped bring a burning issue to the forefront.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/spot-the-difference-hazare-vs-irom-sharmila/149755-3.html
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^I do sincerely hope that demands of people are equally met with their expectation to resolve any kind of dispute or problem in your country. After all, who would stand up against oppression and injustice?. It has to be your educated middle class Indians.
Re: The India democracy - ‘by the people’ again? …
See this is better. You finally acknowledge this woman, where as before, you were dismissive and perhaps even contemptuous of her struggle, even claiming that her own people dont support or acknowledge her.
Like I said before. The reason she isnt recognized is because her struggle hasnt caught the eye of the media, and hasnt been somthing the vast majority of Indians care about or support.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
See this is better. You finally acknowledge this woman, where as before, you were dismissive and perhaps even contemptuous of her struggle, even claiming that her own people dont support or acknowledge her.
Like I said before. The reason she isnt recognized is because her struggle hasnt caught the eye of the media, and hasnt been somthing the vast majority of Indians care about or support.
You missed an important point -
[QUOTE]
It has much to do with the fact that corruption as a broad subject is easier understood by the Indian middle class than an obscure martial law that is perceived to have no bearing on the lives of the majority of people
[/QUOTE]
Media will cover it only if the masses support it/are interested in that coverage/understand the cause.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
So now that the distracting diversion attempted by some by bringing in Manipur Chanu case into this seems finally settled to med911 and xtron's satisfaction, do they also have an opinion on the core question of this thread, about 'by the people' returning to Indian democracy or all they care to do is the attempted derailment? :)
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
So now that the distracting diversion attempted by some by bringing in Manipur Chanu case into this seems finally settled to med911 and xtron's satisfaction, do they also have an opinion on the core question of this thread, about 'by the people' returning to Indian democracy or all they care to do is the attempted derailment? :)
I only brought it up because you guys were being so dismissive of the whole thing. Just wanted to point out the double standard there...
Beyond that, yeah, we should all hope to live in a world free of corruption.
And when has any democracy ever really been by the people? Even in the US, the system is run on the whims of rich political donors, lobbyists etc.
The best you can hope for is to have a relatively educated populous who are capable of seeing through the Bull Sh1t and making their voice heard at the ballot box.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^ that is exactly why the advent of non-wealth non-oligarchical movement such as what Hazare could put up merits attention and shows 'by the people' can still survive....hopefully flourish.
Remember b.t.p doesn't have to be just political movements. in the sixties & seventies (I think since I know only based on what I read) the consumer movement in the US did wonders...quality requirements, warning labels, ingredient listings, product liability etc. (Ofcourse these can get out of control as well if taken to some extremes).
I am hoping that India will gain these
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^ that is exactly why the advent of non-wealth non-oligarchical movement such as what Hazare could put up merits attention and shows 'by the people' can still survive....hopefully flourish.
Remember b.t.p doesn't have to be just political movements. in the sixties & seventies (I think since I know only based on what I read) the consumer movement in the US did wonders...quality requirements, warning labels, ingredient listings, product liability etc. (Ofcourse these can get out of control as well if taken to some extremes).
I am hoping that India will gain these
Good luck.
The forces benefiting from state corrupation are strongly entrenched and I dont think they are willing to smply roll over and die that easily.
But keep hope alive.
Re: The India democracy - 'by the people' again? ....
^ yup.