We believe in the first two person of the Christian Trinity, The “Father” alone being God :swt:, The “Son” being a Prophet i.e. Jesus :as: , what about the Holy Spirit? Where does it/he/she fit in Islam? Do we even believe in it?
Disregarding the christan belief, we believe that God is one, He is absolute, He begets nor he is begotten, and that is there is none like Him. Jesus (as) is like other human beings and is just a Prophet of Allah.
No, we don't believe in Holy Spirit.
I think theyve confused the holy spirit with the angel jibraeel :as:
The holy spirit (Ruh al Qudus in the Qur'an) is understood to refer to Angel Gabriel...
"And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Mariam, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit..." (Qur'an 2:87)
Compare this verse...
"Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth..." (Qur'an 16:102)
with...
"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to your heart by Allah's permission..." (Qur'an 2:97)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
The holy spirit (Ruh al Qudus in the Qur'an) is understood to refer to Angel Gabriel....
[/quote]
..... However in Christianity it is not. The Angel Gabriel IS THE ANGEL GABERIEL, and refered as such.
To a Christian the whole concept of the Trinity in the Qur'an seems perverted ( no offence intended ). There is absolutely no mention that the Holy Spirit/Angel Gabriel is part of the Christian's belief of the God-head. So the defination that the Quran renders for Muslims should not neccessarily imply the reality of the belief of Christians. At no point in history was the Angel Gabriel ever worshiped or ever will be, as God.
In fact, Muslims should try and understand the true concept of the Trinity, in a Christian perspective. How a God who exists outside the physicial dimension we dwell in, does not comply with our understanding of the reality of His existance.
Please read the following I borrowed from another website to make it a little easier to grasp. Ofcourse this in no way is meant to convince YOU. However it may help you understand that Christians believe in ONE not THREE Gods.
[Quote]
One way to relate to the impact of extra dimensions is to imagine a world reduced to only two dimensions (like a tabletop). Imagine further, the existence of several tiny 'flat' human beings. The 'flat' people would view each other only as a line. They could get an idea of the total shape of each other only by moving around each other. They would not have the total view of a three dimensional observer.
Let's call such a 3-d observer '3-D God'. Such a 3-D God would be able to view an entire flat person at once. Likewise, the 3-D God could place a finger a fraction of an inch above a flat person and the flat person would never know he was there. 3-D God could be totally invisible in the world of two dimensions, unless he chose to insert himself into it. By placing a finger on the 2-d plane, 3-D God would appear as one flat line to people. placing three fingers on the plane would make him appear as three lines. In either case, the flat people would have very little concept of how such a 3-D God could exist as both one and three lines at the same time (the idea of the trinity).
Likewise, the 3-D God could know much more about a flat person than any flat person would know about themselves. He would also see outside of the vision of the other flat people, as well as vision of other characters in this 'third dimension'. 3-D God could observe the totallity of the whole tabletop and let them know whatever he wanted to. 3-D God could even do things that would be considered miracles to the 2-D people.
Such a simple illustrastion provides some insight into the impact of adding only one dimension adds...considering that the latest queantum physics breakthroughs show up to seven shows you how a God could exist.
[/quote]
We believe in a loving God who cared so much for humanity that He entered Space and Time in the HUMAN person of Jesus, (Ruh-ullah) to BE the Word, (Kalim-ullah) rather than a mere mouthpiece.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by blitz: *
In fact, Muslims should try and understand the true concept of the Trinity, in a Christian perspective.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps when Christianity finally gives us all a sensible and understandable description of the trinitarian "mystery" we might then be able to attempt to understand what this supposed "true concept" is...
Okay so Holy Spirit is a title for Gabriel :as: but there’s no mention of the third person of the Christian Trinity in our scriptures???
Quran 19:17
And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her **Our spirit* and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.*
????
I remember reading an article in which some dude tried to prove that Mohammed (PBUH) was the 'Holy Spirit'. It had something to do with being sent down after Jesus as a guide to the world. Kind of fits our prophet like a glove, eh?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by armughal: *
**Quran 19:17*
And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her **Our spirit* and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.*
????
[/QUOTE]
<~~~ Catholic
Quran 19:17 in my catholic teachings...
We = God
her = Mary
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by armughal: *
**Quran 19:17*
And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her **Our spirit* and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.*
????
[/QUOTE]
Our spirit = Angel Gabriel
See also the very first hadith in Sahih Muslim for another example of Angel Gabriel taking the form of a man.
Exactly my point…
If the Quran were truly from God, it would at least get all the facts straight, while demonstrating an error in the belief system of that faith.
Allah merely speculates???
Well everyone knows the Christian clergy continuously changed and adapted their theology and therefore it varied from place to place and time to time, it wouldn’t have been practical nor of any use to cover the small details about how it has changed and continues to do so, the Qur’aan and Sunnah tells us what we need to know about Christianity and that is it started as a monotheistic faith and light from God and has changed to polytheism because they believe in and worship the trinity instead of just The “Father” and they (some sects) pray to Mary (peace be upon her), the angels, the saints etc.
And it could be that it was the early Christians made a mistake in interpreting the term Holy Spirit thinking it were something separate from Gabriel when it fact it weren’t, ages ago I read somewhere that in Jewish scriptures the term Holy Spirit seems to be referring to Gabriel.
But Gabriel in my catholic belief.....
The angel who spoke to Mary.
THE NICENE CREED (4th Century A.D.)
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by blitz: *
Exactly my point...
If the Quran were truly from God, it would at least get all the facts straight, while demonstrating an error in the belief system of that faith.
Allah merely speculates???
[/QUOTE]
There's no speculation in the Qur'an about what the trinity is or is not...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by blitz: *
..... However in Christianity it is not. The Angel Gabriel IS THE ANGEL GABERIEL, and refered as such.
To a Christian the whole concept of the Trinity in the Qur'an seems perverted ( no offence intended ). There is absolutely no mention that the Holy Spirit/Angel Gabriel is part of the Christian's belief of the God-head. So the defination that the Quran renders for Muslims should not neccessarily imply the reality of the belief of Christians. At no point in history was the Angel Gabriel ever worshiped or ever will be, as God.
In fact, Muslims should try and understand the true concept of the Trinity, in a Christian perspective. How a God who exists outside the physicial dimension we dwell in, does not comply with our understanding of the reality of His existance.
Please read the following I borrowed from another website to make it a little easier to grasp. Ofcourse this in no way is meant to convince YOU. However it may help you understand that Christians believe in ONE not THREE Gods.
We believe in a loving God who cared so much for humanity that He entered Space and Time in the HUMAN person of Jesus, (Ruh-ullah) to BE the Word, (Kalim-ullah) rather than a mere mouthpiece.
[/QUOTE]
What kind of ignorant person you are? Calling one's beliefs perversion. Check out the comprehensiveness of Trinity yourself and you will have no where to hide yourself.
Check out Ahmed Deedad's dialogues on Trinity with a Christian priest and you would know how hollow is this concept itself, regardless of what you guys say about it when one questions about it logically. I will dig in for the reference site and will post it later.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
What kind of ignorant person you are? Calling one's beliefs perversion. Check out the comprehensiveness of Trinity yourself and you will have no where to hide yourself.
Check out Ahmed Deedad's dialogues on Trinity with a Christian priest and you would know how hollow is this concept itself, regardless of what you guys say about it when one questions about it logically. I will dig in for the reference site and will post it later.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry.
You ask me? I say..I don't know the answer.
What logic remains?
Not mine.
Only thing that gets me going is idea I keep of God.
Name calling will get you nowhere bud…
Ignorance is reading and not grasping its meaning. I said
“To a Christian, the concept stated in the Quran seems perverted…”
If it were not so would we (Christias) not all be a believing Muslims instead? Infact muslims say the same about the Bible all the time, no one put a shot gun to your head, into believing otherwise.
Albeit if Allah had all the answers, why did he fail to mention (for clarity of muslims, and the error of the belief of christianity) the third person of the Trinity?
In fact is there not speculation in the Quran that involves Mary the mother of Jesus,as being part of it?
How arrogant of you to assume that God would be as “comprehensible” as the number O.N.E. in a physical sense, and of this physical universe. If He were such, He would be part and parcel of the universe He created, with physical limitations, now would he not?
Anyhow, why is it neccessary for mere humans to “comprehend” in totality the concept of God. Would it not make us greater than He is, if we presumed to solve Him like a math problem?
If indeed YOU were to open your eyes to the errors in the Quran, YOU will have no where to hide.
Just to help you open your eyes:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/
opps!
Oh ho! its u talking about errors!
When u don’t even know the geneology of ur god Jesus
Would u like me to post a list here?This will need a new website.
U can enjoy a few of these:
News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com
http://www.mythofjesus.org.uk/