The Great Debate

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I’d like serious comments:

The most debated topic among Muslims and in Muslim countries over the last 200 years has been , over one fundamental question, ** how did we come to this sorry state? **

Militarily the much used (and abused by non Muslims) term Jihad has been pretty much defensive for the last 300 years. While Muslim Nations have forced back Super powers in long drawn out guerilla wars (Algeria, Afghanistan). In true Military terms with the possible exception of Afghanistan in the 19th Century, no Muslim nation has won a major Military victory against an equal Non Muslim rival. While economically, you have had economic success in the case of the gulf States, KSA and Malaysia, they are often successes at the sake of the Nations self respect (in case of the Gulf, having to ask for American help against neighbours) or the loss of personal freedom (as in Malaysia).

At an intellectual level and religious level, few if any progressive Muslim intellectuals reside in Muslim states, and those who do live in Muslim states have often had to live in fear of their lives or have been marginalised from the main stream. Religiously Muslims have divided into increasingly militant sectarian groups who start never ending cycles of violence, while politically Muslim Nations are unqiue in having the Organisation for Islamic Countries, on the reverse around 1/3rd of all muslims reside in non Muslim countries.

So what is the answer? The secularists answer is to “blame the religion” Islam. Citing Islam being “a backward violent religion” the removal of it’s influence from Muslim society would solve all problems, while Islamists will say the solution is “back to basics”. In case of the former that is a perspective of a belief system which generally looks at secularism as a “way of life” and a religion as at best a neccessray evil. So secularists look at any religion which has such a strong hold over it’s followers as an anathema.

While Islamists movements have cited the corrupting influence of Western society as the primary cause of Muslim society’s decline.

These Islamist movements have often sprung up advocating reform of Muslim society, most have failed either because their success attracted powerful enemies ( The Egyptians led the campaign against the first Salafi movement in the 19th century, while the Italians fought a bitter war against the Senussis of Libya, whom they eventually overwhelmed) or because of popular backlash against excessive puritanism (the Taliban?)

So what is the solution?

2

Part of the reason is that people think that there is/was a monolithic muslim mindset or governance. Even in the days of the Caliphates, governance was quite local and regional with local command and control, taxation and judiciary.

Zakk, to answer you query..Bernard Lewis, the noted islamic historian suggests that there are two corollaries int eh muslim world that approach your question with divergent strategies.

1) Why did this happen to us? internal failures of governance, lack of change, religious shackling..reslting in Introspection and change. As many other cultures have gone through

2) WHo did this us? A seemingly perfect system ordained by god cannot function and is losing ground to others could only mean that someone (read: ungodly) is against us. Frustration results in sectarianism, the terrorism etc..

I think in the long term, the first corollary would win..but in the short term we would have to deal with the "woe is me" mentality.

3

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Part of the reason is that people think that there is/was a monolithic muslim mindset or governance. Even in the days of the Caliphates, governance was quite local and regional with local command and control, taxation and judiciary.

Zakk, to answer you query..Bernard Lewis, the noted islamic historian suggests that there are two corollaries int eh muslim world that approach your question with divergent strategies.

1) Why did this happen to us? internal failures of governance, lack of change, religious shackling..reslting in Introspection and change. As many other cultures have gone through

[/QUOTE]

absolutely. hopefully..if this OIC conference is anything to go by, that time is not inifinitely distant.

[QUOTE]

2) WHo did this us? A seemingly perfect system ordained by god cannot function and is losing ground to others could only mean that someone (read: ungodly) is against us. Frustration results in sectarianism, the terrorism etc..

I think in the long term, the first corollary would win..but in the short term we would have to deal with the "woe is me" mentality.
[/QUOTE]

your 'short term' might contribute towards explaining some of the terrorism, but to an insignificant extent. Muslims have been indulging in the "why" for centuries now, and without resorting to 'terrorism, extremism' or whatnot. See shikwa/jawabi shikwa. and for the most part of our history, this explaining of "why" has been introspective rather than anything else.

every single reason cited by OBL for his actions were reasons where Muslim countries were the victims, not Islam.

And yes, there is a tendency to think that America have a beef against Islam. Now. 10 years ago you couldnt have suggested that to someone in Karachi and expected to have gotten off without having your self respect significantly impaired.

Sadly, the american public seems equally ill-educated about who we are, and what we have always been.

4

“I think in the long term, the first corollary would win..but in the short term we would have to deal with the “woe is me” mentality.”

This is a quote from Friedmans’ latest column:

"Tomorrow, in Amman, Jordan, these Arab thinkers will unveil their second Arab Human Development Report, which focuses on the need to rebuild Arab “knowledge societies.” The report is embargoed until then, but from talking with the authors I sense it will be another bombshell.

Those who worked on this report do not believe in the Iraq-war model of political change. They prefer evolution from within. But they believe there must be serious change. They are convinced that Islam has a long history of absorbing knowledge. But in the modern era an unholy alliance between repressive Arab regimes and certain conservative Muslim scholars has led to the domination of certain interpretations of Islam that serve the governments but are hostile to human development — particularly freedom of thought, women’s empowerment and the accountability of governments to their people.

The result? There are just 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab region today, compared with the global average of 78.3 per 1,000, and only 1.6 percent of the Arab population has Internet access. In 1995-96 alone, 25 percent of all graduates from Arab universities with B.A. degrees emigrated, while 15,000 medical doctors left the Arab world from 1998 to 2000.

The number of scientists and engineers working in R.&D. in the Arab region is 371 per million citizens, compared with a global rate of 979 per million. Although the Arab region represents 5 percent of world population, it produces only 1.1 percent of the books in the world. There is an abundance of religious books published in the Arab region — more than triple the world average — but a paucity of literary and artistic works. Tons of foreign technology is imported, but it’s never really internalized or supplanted by Arab innovations."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/opinion/19FRIE.html?8hpib

The conclusions are pretty stark. The Arab world, and presumably the wider Islamic world have fallen behind in science, research, literature, and education. The “woe is me” mindset is almost impossible to imagine when we are talking about 1.3 Billion individuals. Almost by default, no one could enslave, impoverish and disadvantage 20 percent of the worlds population. The conclusion almost has to be, Islam has done it to themselves. Friedman is also very dramatic in showing that the intellectual capital of Muslims, particularly who become doctors and scientist in the west, is ripe, but is supressed in native lands. The question is, why is there no culture of success in Muslim countries? Obviously that is a gross overstatement, but all month I have been hearing of the outsoursing of technology jobs to India. India and Pakistan are like twin sons from different mothers. Why would one be moving so rapidly, while the other remains mired in difficulties?

So how can the intellectual capital of Muslims be unleashed? Addressing corruption, education, or is it the framework of conservative Islam that holds back the collective energy? Who knows? The frustration is almost palpable.

5

lack of intellectual muslims....
we have drawn a line between worldly knowledge and religious knowledge and have not been able to combine the two....
the engineers, doctors, economists, bla bla bla know nothing of religion (except for the five prayers and fasting in ramadan) and the mullahs know nothing of economics, engineering, world politics, warfare bla bla bla....

we have to have more ppl who can combine the knowledge....

6

this debate aint so great.

trouble with this forum is that people agree with each other too much.

7

^
and thats the greater debate, outside the forum muslims disagree with each other too much....

8

isnt that what a debate is tho

9

Problem is in Islam itself. Problem is that Muslims do not agree to look inside.
In which period there was never militancy in Islam?
Islamic rulers could conquer only the weak states in past, but the day strategy became more important, Islamic forces victories vanished into the blue and they still think that the shoutings of Allah are great force.
Gorilla wars of Afghanistan…first these wars were mostly among Muslim land lords and never forget that in history no State, however powerful it is, could never win against a Gorilla war, hence Islam is not a unique factor.

What is the solution…Islam needs a revolt from within.

(This one paragraph says a lot, Re Zakk)
At an intellectual level and religious level, few if any progressive Muslim intellectuals reside in Muslim states, and those who do live in Muslim states have often had to live in fear of their lives or have been marginalised from the main stream. Religiously Muslims have divided into increasingly militant sectarian groups who start never ending cycles of violence, while politically Muslim Nations are unqiue in having the Organisation for Islamic Countries, on the reverse around 1/3rd of all muslims reside in non Muslim countries.

10

Mats: The first line you posted was interesting but I am assumiung you supported the devolving of power?

I have read Bernard Lewis's work and disagree with some of his observations, but he is a good writer and is always worth reading.

*internal failures of governance, *

If you look back at the 20th century and the 19th century, most Muslim states had essentially started co opting Western ideas and secular beliefs in an attempt to westernise, these "Islam being the problem" leaders often suppressed religious freedoms. Essentially the failure of good governance and failure of leaders was a failure of secular leaders. When you contrast that with the political leadership of groups like the FIS in Algeria and Refah in turkey, the comparison is striking these political groups were far more effective in delivering good health care, good education and proper social justice to the community.

OG: The Arab Development report states both the obvious and ignores some relevant facts. Firstly, the main Arab populations in the Middle East are concentrated in Egypt, Iraq, and Algeria. All three have been driven to the bottom of the barrel because of Global politics. In case of Iraq, little needs to be said, what was left of it's infrastructure after the first Gulf War was destroyed by sanctions and war again, brutal oppression and sanctions led to massive displacement and poverty.

Next is Algeria, again no real controversy, a brutal Military junta again propped up which subverted Democracy and killed thousands, again the resul? large scale displacement... poverty.

Finally Egypt, ironically after peace with cap david Egypt has spent more on Defence Expenditure than previously! Essentially a goverment that is propped up and is Aid dependant with a dynastic pseudo Democracy.

So when taken into account blaming Islam or the culture of arabs is a gross exaggeration.

Yehudi: In which period there was never militancy in Islam?

That's a bit of a circular argument, the common line used is "more Muslims are killed, by other Muslims than by Non Muslims", but when you compare that fact with other socities or Nations you find that most societies have the same problem. More americans were killed during the American civil war, than if you combine all the Wars fought by the US previously and afterwards. Similarly, more Indians have been killed by their own security forces then by Pakistani troops.

11

Zakk, is your statement an excuse?

For your information all rest of societies, countries have accepted the mistakes, have analyzed the mistakes of past and these studies have contributed in further progress.

What about Islam and Islamic community and States? Apart from excuses only, what contribution have they made to Islam?

Do you accept that Islam was always militant?
That can be a right start in a right direction.

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
Problem is in Islam itself. Problem is that Muslims do not agree to look inside.
In which period there was never militancy in Islam?
Islamic rulers could conquer only the weak states in past, but the day strategy became more important, Islamic forces victories vanished into the blue and they still think that the shoutings of Allah are great force.
Gorilla wars of Afghanistan…first these wars were mostly among Muslim land lords and never forget that in history no State, however powerful it is, could never win against a Gorilla war, hence Islam is not a unique factor.

What is the solution…Islam needs a revolt from within.

(This one paragraph says a lot, Re Zakk)
At an intellectual level and religious level, few if any progressive Muslim intellectuals reside in Muslim states, and those who do live in Muslim states have often had to live in fear of their lives or have been marginalised from the main stream. Religiously Muslims have divided into increasingly militant sectarian groups who start never ending cycles of violence, while politically Muslim Nations are unqiue in having the Organisation for Islamic Countries, on the reverse around 1/3rd of all muslims reside in non Muslim countries.
[/QUOTE]

Can you come off it?Muslims only conquered weak states, han? ever read history? Romans weren't weak when muslims conquered it.Islam doesnot has to change or evolve, muslims need to get back to it. And please don't judge islam by these twisted militant groups, they are frustrated people. And i hope you know whats the cause of frustration. They way the are behaving is called retaliation and at some places pure idiocy not islam. The corrupt muslims donot represent islam either, there is a difference between theory and believer. They do the lip service by saying they are muslims, their actions donot follow islam.