The Existence of God

Good Luck.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

The concept of a Supreme Creator of the universe has been something, which the western world has been trying to prove or refute now for thousands of years. However, only in the past 200 years have the creme de la creme of western intellectuals, come to the conclusion that a God/Creator of the universe is and has been a figment of mans imagination. This conclusion was formed as a reaction to the beliefs and practices of Christianity, which was a major force in European life at this time. Beliefs such as that of the Trinity[1] and the divine nature of Jesus Christ, were so complicated to understand - even for the elite of the church - that eventually the idea of a supreme and perfect creator (which Christianity had distorted) was replaced by many new theories which tried to explain how mankind came about and developed. Many different theories were introduced to the western world, but one common trait, which they all shared, was that there was no Supreme force, which governed the universe.

So where does Islam come into all of this? Islam[2] is the one way of life, the one religion which until now has not been challenged successfully by any philosopher, atheist or intellectual. Rather the case has been the exact opposite and there have been thousands, if not millions, of so-called ‘atheists’ who have reverted back to Islam. So how does Islam explain the existence of this Supreme Creator?

The Natural Way

Allaah says in his final revelation, the Qur’aan:

“Therefore turn your face steadfastly towards the true faith, away from all that which is false, in accordance with the Pure nature with which Allaah has Created people. Let there be no altering in the laws of Allaah’s Creation. This is surely the true religion, but most people do not know it.”
(Surah Ar-Rum 30:30)

The pure nature which is mentioned in this verse is probably the most convincing proof of a divine creator to any sincere seeker of truth. Which person can deny (atheist or otherwise) that when he/she is in dire trouble, when life is about to be taken away from them, when the pressures are unbearable - that then do they turn to that force above the skies. How many times are we confronted by a scenario in which the words: “Please God help me, and I promise that Iwill always pray to you and be good.” roll off our tongues with such sincerity? Every time something bad happens, words such as these come out of the people’s mouths. Yet as soon as the harm is removed the very same people beseeching the help of their creator, turn away:

“And whatever of blessings and good things you have, it is from Allah. Then, when harm touches you, unto him you cry aloud for help. Yet no sooner does he remove your ills then some of you set up partners to their lord.”
(Surah An-Nahl 16:53-54)

This pure nature which every human is born with is known as the Fitrah in the Arabic language. Every human being, man or woman is born with this natural instinct to recognise the Creator and turn to Him. This is proved by the hadeeth[5] of the last messenger to mankind Muhammed (s.a.w.) who said: “Every child is born upon the pure fitra, it is only his parents that later turn him into a Jew, a Christian, or a Magian.[6]”[7]

In fact if humans were not influenced by their societal pressures then their belief in the Creator would be distinct and clearly visible. But unfortunately this is not the case, and there exists in all non-Muslim societies a clear trend to distort the nature of human beings. One of the ways in which this is done in western societies is through the education system and its institutions. Western education is based around a whole body of secular thought which has no place for a Creator. In science lessons kids are taught that we are the ancestors of monkeys and apes and that this implies that we came about by pure chance.[8] In subjects such as psychology and sociology we are taught that religion is a tool of the privileged few who oppress the downtrodden majority.[9] This form of education has also unfortunately influenced the Muslims, and we find it very common nowadays to see the likes of the ‘Abdullaah’s’ and the ‘Fatima’s’ of western society proclaiming that they do not believe in God.

The Beauty of creation

Allaah says in the Qur’aan:

“Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, in the alternation of night and day, in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of the people, in the water which Allaah sends down from the skies reviving with it the dead earth and dispersing over it all kinds of beasts, in the change of the winds, and in the clouds that run their appointed courses between heaven and earth: In all of this, indeed there are signs for people of understanding.”
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:164)

SubhaanAllaah![11] How beautiful and accurate this verse is. Is it not true that when we look at the world around us we see such beauty and craftsmanship. Surely such excellence could not have come about by chance. Everything in this world and universe runs on a set course and pattern, so how is it possible then, that by pure chance everything in this universe was created with such skill and precision?

The wonders of nature are absolutely astounding, the wind, the rain, the hail and the snow were all products of chance, then why is it that mankind, with all his technological know how, cannot even divert the softest of breezes which blows through the trees in summer? The answer is obvious. All these natural elements are aspects of Allaah’s Creation and he alone can control and manipulate them as he wills.

In fact the Creation of Allaah is so perfect that even if we try to detect a fault in it, then we will not succeed:

“Blessed he He to Whom all sovereignty belongs; He has power over all things. He Who Created death and life that He may test which of you is best in deed. He is the Almighty, the Oft-forgiving. He Who Created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the Creation of the Bestower of Mercy. Turn up your eyes: Can you detect a single flaw? Look once more, and yet again: Your sight will in the end grow humbled and weary.”
(Surah Al-Mulk 67:1-4)

It is not just the seas, the mountains, the rivers and the skies which are a proof for the existence of our Creator, but also ourselves. Allaah says in the Qur’aan:

"On the earth are signs visible to all who have faith with certainty, just as there are signs within your ownselves. Will you then not see?"
(Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51:20-21)

The variety of humanity is indeed amazing, black and white, tall and short, fat and thin, good and evil, man and woman etc. etc. How many times have we considered the complex makeup of our bodies both physical and mental and found it to be completely beyond belief. It is known that if the intestines of a human being were taken out of the body, they would be so long that they could cover the entire area of a tennis court!

But when we think about these long intestines being inside of us, it astounds and amazes us. The human brain is thought to be more powerful that any mainframe computer on earth, whilst the eye is said to be more complex and structured then any telescope invented by man. The human mind is something which is still undiscovered by psychologists and psychiatrists, and the nature of our dreams and thoughts is something which these people will probably never unravel. So we should ask ourselves, is it still possible for such a complex being such as ourselves, to be a mere product of chance, or rather, are we products of a supreme and skillful creator, who has shown us that he really is Al-Khaliq?[14]

Yet despite our complicated and intricate makeup, our comparison to the Creator is not even possible. Mankind with his level of technology has gained the impression that he is the most supreme being in this universe. Yet when we look at examples of western society we see that these same humans who claim such superiority, cannot even maintain basic standards of hygiene! Washing the body-parts after urinating or excreting has almost become a sin for many people in the west, yet at the same time these people are the very same who claim technological advancement! Maybe if they believed in a Creator, the basics of life would perchance return to them, just as they have returned to the Muslims.

The proofs for the existence of a creator are so numerous that it would take us a very long time to go through every single one. So finally we should remember, that the creation of humanity was neither an accident, nor a development from monkey to man. Rather it was the creation of Allah the Most High, the Most Perfect, who reminds us of the stupidity of those who claim that He did not create us:

“Were they created of nothing? or were they perchance, their own creators? or did they create the heavens and the earth? surely they have no firm belief.”
(Surah At-Tur 52:35-36)


*Footnotes

1 The belief that the Father (God), the son (Jesus) and the Holy spirit (?) are all parts of one God, despite the fact that they are 3 separate entities!! To this very day millions of Christians are still unable to understand this belief, which is one of the reasons why it has even been thrown out of some versions of the Bible.
2 The meaning of Islam is to ‘sincerely submit your will, to the will of Allaah (God)’.
3 Surah Ar-Rum 30:30
4 Surah An-Nahl 16:53-54
5 Hadeeth: A report of the Prophet Muhammed’s (s.a.w.'s) sayings, actions or approvals.
6 A Magian is another word for a fire worshipper.
7 Sahih Muslim.
8 This theory was made popular by a man known as Charles Darwin.
9 This is the view of the German scientist Karl Marx.
10 Surah AI-Baqara 2:164.
11 Glory be to Allaah who is free form any imperfection.
12 Surah Tabarak 67:14
13 Surah Az-Dhariyat 51:20-21.
14 The supreme creator: This is one of the many attributes of Allaah.
15 Surah At-Tur 52:35-36. *


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

Hi, my name is Q. You may remember me from some Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes. I am omniscient and omnipotent. But I sure as heck ain't merciful or oft-giving.

See, I wanted to test this little theory of mine: chaos theory. You know, where a butterfly flaps his wings in Japan, and then there is a hurricane in California. Except, I wanted to try something on my own creation. So I started by creating the earth and the heavens, and I put this guy Adam in the middle. Then I more or less let it run it's course. The humans screwed up, so I decided to restart the test, to give me a new data point. I got lazy, and instead of destroying it all and recreating, I just flooded the darn place, and told Noah to restart for me. (Bad science, I know, but, what the heck?)

Every once in a while, I wanted to play with my little creation. Those Egyptians were getting too plentiful, so I decided this smallish band of slaves should revolt and kill them all. Volcano at Pompeii? I enjoyed that too. Sometimes, I even take the guise of this red guy with horns (Lucifer, I think is what the humans call him). I make humans kill each other, and do all sorts of nasty things. Great fun for me to watch.

To let my little experiment take off, I started up a couple of different religions. I came to Zoroaster. I came to Moses. I came to Manu. I came to that Tao dude, and I told'em all what was up. That Manu dude actually thought he divined it himself. heh

Another time, I found this kid who looked kinda lost. He was called Muhammed I think. I actually told him that I was all merciful, and that only his followers would go to heaven. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. They actually believed me. Just to strengthen their faith, I every once in a while drop a sign down - like someone will cut open an apple and see "Allah" written inside. Not only that, they actually make other people convert to this religion. It's hilarious, actually.

The more I tell them that "Allah" is the only way, the more they believe it. I told them only they will go to heaven. As if there actually was a place with virgins galore! I told them to kill the idolaters, and destroy their temples. And they did! It's amazing, all I have to do is tell them that they will go to heaven, and I can get them to do whatever I want. But don't worry, one day, I will kill them all. The experiment will be over, and my new paper, "Chaos Theory results using soft pink carbon lifeforms" should get me a prize.

They believe me, that I am most merciful. What a crock!

So your point is? Making jokes about Islamic beliefs will not get you the respect you want.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Something you do not want to accept, you turn it into a joke. What a stupid act of stupidity.

Here is slap on your face, after you reject the signs and Message of Allah(your GOD my GOD and GOD of EVERYTHING) to all mankind: LIVE WITH IT

1. Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!
2. "I worship not that which you worship,
3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
[109:5]
5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6. “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism).” (QUran-surah-109)

Bye!


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited October 18, 2000).]

astrofan, you are going against your most sacred Hindu scriptures.

Your premature discussion is an insult to God. Your God. Our God.

Please be careful. Posts like the above do nothing but increase the friction among participants unnecessarily.


They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

PROOFS OF GOD'S EXISTENCE FROM THE
QUR'ÂN THE LIVING MIRACLE

Say: "To whom belong all that is in the heavens and earth?" Say: "To Allah". He has prescribed for Himself mercy. He will gather you all for the day of judgment in which there is no doubt. The ones who have lost themselves are the ones who will not believe" [Qur'an, 6:12; Al-An'am, "The Livestock"]

The proofs of God's existence are all around us. Yet some still believe that all the wonders that surround us, from the infinite intricacy of life to the infinite wisdom with which the stars and planets float in the endless space, are but a coincidence or a product of a blind nature. To believe in that is like believing that a great painter drew a beautiful portrait by splashing buckets of paint on a dry cloth, or that a great writer wrote a masterpiece by throwing printing press letters into the air and watching them arrange themselves into words and sentences.

Because Islam is the religion chosen by God (Allah) until the end of time, and since Mohammad (peace be upon him [pbuh]) is the last of the prophets, the greatest miracles of Islam have to be of a lasting nature. Unlike the splitting of the sea by Moses (pbuh), which was witnessed only by those who were present during the event, the miracles of the Qur'an can be witnessed over and over by all generations. In other words, the greatest miracles of Islam lie within the Qur'an and can be witnessed by anyone simply by reading the words of God. When the Qur'an was inspired to Mohammad (pbuh), it carried the message that in the eyes of God, there is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab or a black person and a white person except by his or her fear of Allah and the righteous deeds he or she does. The pagans of Quraish (the tribe living in Makkah at the time of the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) ) chose not to believe that the Qur'ân was from Allah and said that Mohammad had forged it.

They were first challenged to write a book similar to the Qur'an; they could not. Say: "verily if the whole of mankind and the jinns should assemble together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they would not produce the like thereof, Even if they backed up each other with help and support." [Qur'an, 17:88;Al-Isra', "Al-Isra"]

Next the challenge was eased to the writing of ten suras (chapters) like the suras of the Qur'an, but they were not able to do it. Or they say: "He [Prophet Mohammad] has forged it [the Qur'an]". Say: "bring you then ten forged suras like it, and call unto whomsoever you can [to help you], other than Allah, if you are truthful". So if they answer you not, then know that it [the Qur'an] was only sent down with the knowledge of Allah and that there is no god but Him. So will you be Muslims? [Qur'an, Sura II: 13-14 Hud, "Hud"]

Finally, they were challenged to write just one Surah (chapter) that would pass for a Surah of Allah's words and still they could not. And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down on Our worshiper [Mohammad, peace be upon him], then produce a Surah [chapter] of the like thereof and call your witnesses [supporters and helpers] besides Allah if you are truthful. So if you do it not, and you can never do it,then fear the fire [hell] whose fuel is people and stones that was prepared for the pagans. [Qur'an, 2:23-24; Al-Baqarah, "The Cow"]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented by other than Allah, but it's agreement [and confirmation] with that which was before it [the Taurat and the Gospel] and the full explanation of the Book without doubt therein is from the Lord of all that exists. Or do they say "he [Muhammad] has forged it". Say: "bring then a surah [chapter] like it, and call upon whosoever you can [to help you], besides Allah, if you are truthful."[Qur'an, 10:37-38; Yunus, "Jonah"]

The extent of this challenge can be appreciated when one realizes that the shortest chapter in the Qur'an (108; Al-kawthar) is only three verses long! What are the rules of this challenge? The answer is simple; the pagans of Quraish who were experts in the art of the word were challenged to write something of the same literary merit as the Qur'an, but they were not able to do it. Yet the challenge was not to write something that would equal the Qur'an only in its literary merit, the challenge was to produce a book that would be an equal to the Qur'an in all aspects. To answer the question of the nature of these other aspects, we must first answer another question: 'what is the most important attribute that a book truly sent by Allah has to have?' We are given the answer to this question in the Qur'an: Do they not then ponder on the Qur'an? And had it been from other than Allah, then surely they would have found therein much discrepancies. [Qur'ân, Surah 4:82 Al-Nisa', "The Women"]

The word 'discrepancies' found at the end of this verse is a loose translation of the Arabic word 'ikhtilaf', which literally means 'difference'. If the difference is within the book itself, then it is called a discrepancy (something that contradicts something else within the same book). If the difference is between the book and the outside world as it truly is, not necessarily as our limited knowledge in a certain era tells us it is, then, this difference is called an error. Thus the challenge for us is to bring forth a book that contains truths of a scientific nature not known to us today, a book that one can read 1500 years from today and, discover that indeed it was telling the truth. A book in which not a single word would be proven to be wrong, ever. Despite all that, the pagans of Quraish still insisted that the illiterate Mohammad (pbuh) who was never a writer or a scholar had forged the Qur'an. They accused Mohammad (pbuh) of being a poet, a madman and a soothsayer. Yet could a madman or a poet produce what all of humanity was challenged to replicate and was not able to? Could a soothsayer utter truths of a scientific nature that would only be discovered hundreds of years after his death? Indeed not, and the Qur'an gives an answer to there allegations innumerous verses.

So I swear by whatsoever you see. And by whatsoever you see not. Verily this is the word of an honored messenger. And it is not the word of a poet, little is it that you believe. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer, little is it that you remember. A revelation from the Lord of the Alameen [mankind, Jinns and all that exists]. And if he [Mohammad] had invented some false saying concerning Us [Allah]. We surely would have seized him by his right hand [or with power and might]. And then certainly We would have cut off his life artery. And none of you could have withheld from him [Allah's wrath].

And verily it [the Qur'an] is a reminder for the Muttaqin [the pious and those whose fear Allah]. And verily We know that there are among those who fear Allah. And verily We know that there are among you some that belie [this Qur'an]. And verily it [the Qur'an] is an anguish for the disbelievers. And verily it is a truth of assured certainty. So glorify the name of your Lord the Most Great. [Qur'an, Sura 69:38-52; Al-Haqqah, "The Sure Reality"]

And you [Mohammad] did not recite before it [the Qur'an] any book, nor did you write it [any book] with your right hand. For then, indeed the followers of falsehood would have doubted. But it is clear revelations in the chests of those who were given knowledge. And none deny our Ayat [proofs, evidences, signs, revelations, etc.] except the unjust. And they said: "if only signs were sent down on him from his Lord." Say: "Indeed the signs are only with Allah and I am but a clear warner." Was it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book [the Qur'an] which is recited to them. Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder for people who believe. Say: "Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and earth. And those who have believed in the Batil [all false deities other than Allah] and disbelieved in Allah, those are the losers." [Qur'an, 29:48-52; Al-Ankaboot "The Spider"]

And never did We destroy a township, but it had its warners. By way of reminder, and We have never been unjust. And it is not the Shayatin [devils] who have brought it [this Qur'an] down. Neither would it suit them, nor they can [produce it]. Verily, they have been removed far from hearing it. So invoke not with Allah another god lest you be among those who will be punished. [Qur'an, 26:208-213; Al-Shua'ra', "The Poets"]

**Maurice Bucaille wrote in a book titled The Bible, the Qur'an and Science (1978) "The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits,in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?" (p. 125).

Some Proofs from Biology

(1) 1400 years before the invention of the modern microscopes and the science of embryology, Allah gave us in the Qur'an the precise stages through which the human embryo goes in the course of its development: And indeed We created man [Adam] out of an extract of clay. Thereafter We made him as a Nutfah [mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge] [and lodged it] in a safe lodging [woman's womb]. Then We made the Nutfah into a leech [or leech-like structure] then We made the leech into a chewed lump, then We made out of the chewed lump bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. [Qur'an, 23:12-14; Al-Mu'minun, "The Believers"]

Dr. Keith L. Moore (Ph.D., F.I.A.C). The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada) commented on these verses in a paper titled "A Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur'ân" (The Journal of the Islamic Medical Association, Vol. 18, Jan-Jun 1986, pp. 15-16): "The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop!"). The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech. As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae... Out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm."

(2) Allah also states in the Qur'an the correct order in which the senses of hearing, seeing and understanding develop: And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding. [Qur'an, 32:9; Al-Sajdah, "The Prostration"]

Dr. Keith L. Moore comments on these verses in the same paper mentioned above saying: "The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last."

(3) We know that life cannot exist without water. That is why when scientists search for life anywhere, even on other planets such as Mars, the first thing they look for is evidence of the existence of water. Allah stated the fact that all living things are made of water in the Qur'an. And Allah has created every moving [living] creature from water. From them is that which goes on its belly, and from them is that which walks on two feet, and from them is that which walks on four. Allah creates what He wills. Verily Allah is able to do all things. [Qur'an, 24:45; Al-Nour, "The Light"]

(4) It is now known that mammary glands secrete milk. The mammary glands are nourished by the products of food digestion in the intestines brought to them by the bloodstream. The fact that it is the blood that transfers nutrients from the intestines to the rest of the body was discovered only recently. The mere fact that blood circulates within the body was discovered about many centuries after the revelation of the Qur'an. And verily in cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is within their bellies, from between excretions [the contents of the intestine] and blood, pure milk; palatable to the drinkers. [Qur'an, 16:66;Al-Nahl, "The Bees"]

Some Proofs from History

(1) There is a city that was mentioned in the Qur'an by the name of Iram. Up until 1975, this city was thought by many non-Muslims to be a mere myth since no mention of it was ever made in any known writings. In 1975 another city by the name of Ibla was unearthed in Syria. In some of the tablets found in the city of Ibla, the name of the city of Iram was mentioned for the first time as a place that used to trade with the city of Ibla. Subsequently, using space photography from the space shuttle, the city of Iram was found in the vicinity of Aden. Then behold! The appearance of this city was exactly as it was described in the Qur'an as a city built with towering pillars: Did you [O Mohammad] not see how your Lord dealt with [the tribe of] Aad ? [the city of] Iram with lofty pillars. The like of which was not created in the lands. Qur'an, 89:6-8; Al-Fajr "The Dawn"]

(2) Since the 18th Egyptian dynasty, all of the ancient rulers of Egypt called themselves Pharaohs. The name initially meant the "great house" which is what the ancient Egyptians called the house of their ruler. Beginning with the 18th dynasty, the name was used to designate the king himself. In the early 17th century BC, Egypt was invaded by the Hyksos, who occupied Egypt until prince Ahmos the first finally freed the country from their grasp in 1570 BC. After Egypt was free, the Egyptians systematically destroyed and altered all the monuments built by the Hyksos. That is why the only remnants of the Hyksos invaders is poorly preserved in scarce inscriptions, sculpture and pottery. A somewhat incomplete knowledge of the Hyksos has only become available recently after extensive research. One of the things we came to learn about the Hyksos from this research was that they did not call themselves Pharaohs, but they called themselves kings. In all of the stories in the Qur'an related to Egypt, when God speaks of the ruler of Egypt, He always calls him 'Pharaoh', except in a single story; the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh), where He calls him 'the king'. Modern history scholars believe that this is because the ruler of Egypt at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was Apophis a Hyksos king. And the king said: "bring him to me that I may attach him to my person." Then, when he spoke to him he said: "Verily, you are today with us with rank fully established and trustworthy." [Qur'an, 12:54; Youssef, "Joseph"]

(3) Allah says in the Qur'an: And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him [Pharaoh], he said: "I believe that there is no god but He in whom the Children of Israel have believed, and I am from the Muslims." Now [you believe] while you have rebelled before and been among the evil-doers. So today We save you in your [dead] body, that you may be a sign to those who come after you. And verily, many among mankind are indeed heedless of Our Ayah [proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, ...etc.). [Qur'an, 10:90-92; Yunus, "Jonah"] Thus Allah says that the body of Pharaoh was not taken by the sea so that Pharaoh may become a sign to those who come after him. Dr. Bucaille conducted research to verify this Qur'ânic story: "in June 1975, the Egyptian high authorities very kindly allowed me to examine the parts of the Pharaoh's body that had been covered until then. They also allowed me to take photographs. What may already be derived from this examination is the discovery of multiple lesions of the bones with broad lacunae, some of which may have been mortal although it is not yet possible to ascertain whether some of them occurred before or after the Pharaoh's death. He most probably died either from drowning, according to the scriptural narrations, or from very violent shocks preceding the moment when he was drowned or both at once. Those who seek among modern data for proof of the veracity of the Holy Scriptures will find a magnificent illustration of the verses of the Qur'an dealing with Pharaoh's body by visiting the Royal Mummies room of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo!" [The Bible, The Qur'an and Science (1978)]

Some Proofs from Astronomy

Let us first have a short introduction about the formation and nature of the stars and planets based upon our modern knowledge and understanding. It is a well known fact that all the stars within any given galaxy as well as their planets are formed from an initial cloud of gas. When that cloud condenses due to gravitational forces it starts to rotate causing hydrogen and helium atoms; its lighter constituents, to be present in higher proportions towards the center of the cloud, thus forming the star. The heavier constituents on the other hand form planets at larger radii due to the centrifugal effect. The star is luminescent because of the nuclear reactions therein while the planets can only be luminescent if they reflect the star's light that is incident on their surface. Each planet in a given solar system floats in space in a prescribed orbit. Furthermore, the star of the solar system itself floats in an orbit around the center of its galaxy. It is truly amazing that the Qur'an actually gives a clear mention to some of these facts.

(1) Concerning the facts that the heavens (galaxies and stars) and earth were both initially made of the same mixture of materials, then part of that material was put into the earth, and the fact that the sun and moon each float in space in a prescribed orbit, Allah says in surat Al-Anbiya': Did those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and earth were joined together as one piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water everything that is alive. Will they not then believe? And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them and We have placed therein broad roads [for them to pass through], that they may be guided. And We have made the sky as a roof, well protected. Yet they turn away from its signs. And it is He who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit they float. [Qur'an, 21:30-33, Al-Anbiya', "The Prophets"]

(2) Concerning the initial formation of the universe and all its galaxies and solar systems, God refers in the Qur'an to the fact that the heavens and earth were brought forth from an initial cloud of gas referred to as smoke which is an accurate description of the appearance of this semi-transparent cloud made of molecules suspended in space. Allah says in the Qur'an: Then He Istawa [rose over in a way only known to Allah] towards the heaven while it was smoke, then He said to it and the earth: "come forth both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, in willing obedience." [Qur'an, 41:1 1; Fussilat, "Explained in Detail"]

(3) While the sun is the source of light for its solar system, the moon and the planets do no more than reflect that light. When Allah speaks in the Quran about the light of the sun, He refers to the sun as a lantern, or a shining source of light. On the other hand, when He speaks of the moon, He speaks of it only as 'lighted' which means that it takes its light from an external source. It is He who made the sun shining and the moon lighted and measured out its stages, that you may know the number of years and the count [of time]. Allah did not create this except in truth. He explains the Ayah [proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, miracles, etc.] in detail for people who have knowledge. [Qur'an, 10:5; Yunus, "Jonath"]

In surat Al-Naml, Allah gives a clear description of the movement of the earth: And you see the mountains, you think them solid [and stationary], when they pass as the passing of the clouds, The making of Allah, Who has perfected everything. Verily, He is well-acquainted with what you do. [Qur'an, 27:88; Al-Naml, "The Ants"]

This verse is truly amazing! It gives a vivid description of the constant movement of the earth. Let us dwell a little on what this verse has to say. First it says that the mountains that we think of as being stationary are actually passing. Then it gives the analogy of the passing of the clouds. One might ask; in which way the passing of the mountains is similar to the passing of the clouds? The answer is: like the clouds pass because of the movement of the medium in which they are (the air), the mountains also pass because of the movement of the earth on which they are placed. Furthermore, notice the accuracy of using the word 'pass' which implies movement in a constant direction as opposed to the word 'move' which can imply changing or random movement to accurately describe the scene one would behold if he or she was to rise high above the earth and observe, while being stationary, the mountains below.

(5) Allah also gave reference to the circular motion associated with the night and day in the Qur'an: He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He coils the night on the day and He coils the day on the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each follows a course for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. [Qur'an, 39:5; Al- Zumar, "The Groups"]

(6) Only recently, was it discovered that the universe is in a constant state of expansion. This was observed indirectly through the Doppler effect which states that the light spectrum emitted by an object moving away from an observer would shift towards a higher wavelength. This fact was clearly stated in the Qur'an: And the heaven, We have built it with power and verily We are expanding it, [Qur'an, 51:47; Al-Zariat, "The Winds"]

This is the Book [the Qur'an] whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who fear Allah. Who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and from what We have provided for them they spend. And who believe in what has been sent down to you and what has been sent down before you and of the hereafter they are certain. These are on guidance from their Lord, and those are the successful. [Qur'an, 2:2-5; Al-Baqarah, "The Cow"] **


Don't take this as cut&paste to excuse your acceptance of the truth. Take it as it is, for knowledge.


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
** astrofan, you are going against your most sacred Hindu scriptures. **
[/quote]

Really? You mean the one where it says - "Do not question me, or you will go to Hell?"

No - our scriptures do not stop us from trying to think about what the world may be. We speculate, poke, and argue.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
** Your premature discussion is an insult to God. Your God. Our God. **
[/quote]

It is the poor God that is insulted by what I say. If God does get insulted, then he is necessarily a vengeful God. If he is a vengeful God, he deserves to be insulted.

In terms of "most holy scripture" - start with the Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna clearly insulted Krishna by laying down his arms to not fight. Krishna clearly castigates him for not following his dharma. Our entire tradition is based on questioning, examining, and denying until the Ultimate Truth can be divined. It's something your friend here has not yet understood.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
*Please be careful. Posts like the above do nothing but increase the friction among participants unnecessarily.
*

[/quote]

It's not as if my previous care actually decreased the friction here. You have noticed the posts that seek to undermine Hinduism here? As if the Muslims are more concerned with Hinduism than Islam?

[quote]
Originally posted by The Watcher:
*So your point is? *
[/quote]

My point is: your own close-mindedness has blinded you from seeing things that any decent philosopher can see. You blindly run back to your Koran as a crutch, instead of making arguments on your behalf. You could easily refute my story using logical arguments - as the concept of a "deceiver" God has roots in even Descartes's time. But instead you call the story out as stupid.

It's interesting - you can't even contemplate the fact that this whole world might actually be the game of some malevolent being. 42 - you do know what 42 is, right? You saw the Matrix, right? Do you have the fundamental philosophical training and education to actually discuss the idea that there is a God?

This thread was on "The Existence of God". And how exactly does quoting words out of a book prove that "Existence"?

And in case you haven't noticed - THE BASEBALL GODS have struck again - a subway series to start off the new millenium is only more punishment for my Astros. There is no game more beautiful than baseball. Anyone who says otherwise is going to Hell. That's what THE BASEBALL GODS told me when I went to seek them yesterday.

Astros suck big time. Its yankees all the way baby.

*There is no god but He, The Only One,
The One who cannot be Seen, who has no Body,
The One who created this Universe with no defect,
The One who created all of us,
The One who is not created by anybody,
The One who posseses all power,
The One who is not Helpless and Dependent,
The one who posseses all the Knowledge,
The One who controls the affairs of everything,
To HIM belongs all the Praise.
*

Bye bye.


*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

astrosfan,

I asked you nicely to please stop saying sensitive things on the nature of our religion. I haven't said anything against your religion. All I've said about Hinduism are positive things. So this is how you me pay back?

I know that there are other people in this forum who do not even try to see the world through your eyes, but does that mean you can paint us all with the same brush? Including me?

For the sake of all the members of this forum, I hope that this message is driven home to everybody. It is not necessary to be arrogant and insensitive when talking to members of non-Muslim faiths. And vice-versa. At all. In fact it causes far more damage to each religions' credibilty than any benefit.

Why the heck do I feel like a moderator speaking sometimes?


They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

Astrofan, or whatever you name maybe, I read your post and was extremely sad to such a low mentality in human kind. Hey Buddy, you didn't prove crap, all you did was make yourself look like a total loser, who is indifferent to others around him.
If you can't respectfully reply to any quotes, than don't offend others by writing meaningless remarks. It's really depressing to see how narrow minded you are about other people's religions.