http://www.economist.com/node/18488344?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/greatdealofruin
This popped up in my News Feed on my Facebook, and was an interesting read to see.
Though the amount of anti-Americanism that exists in Pakistan, does it not bother Pakistani-Americans to see their adopted homeland demonized?
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
I think Pakistani Americans would feel much more threatened by the rampant anti-Muslim sentiment in their adopted homeland. After all they are demonized where they live.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
I think Pakistani Americans would feel much more threatened by the rampant anti-Muslim sentiment in their adopted homeland. After all they are demonized where they live.
With the muted outrage over the Times Square bomber by many Pakistanis, is it really surprising?
Is the anti-Muslim sentiment in the U.S. worse than anti-Christian sentiment in Pakistan? Or anti-Pakistani sentiment in Bahrain? At least no one is lynching Pakistanis in the U.S. as Christians in Pakistan and Pakistani laborers in Bahrain are, so let's have some perspective please?
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Why would a Pakistani-American care to contextualise HIS discrimination against what happens in Pakistan or Bahrain? Re muted outrage.. This collectivism that you indulge in is so stupid. Are all blacks supposed to apologize when someone from Africa commits an act of violence? Do all whites apologize for the existence (and mainstreaming in the form of tea party/Glenn Beck et al) of KKK?
Lets see, three prominent american office holders talking about Muslims:
Presidential candidate Herman Cain on never hiring Muslims
Rep Peter King, “There are too many mosques”. Now heading rulings to decide on good Muslims.
Islam is a cult, Lt. Gov Tennessee: http://www.citizentube.com/2010/07/tennessee-lt-governor-islam-arguably.html
This isnt even talking about the general animus in the rightwing tea-party nativist surge thats running through america at the moment. This isnt even talking about the mosques that get firebombed and the outcry over building a Muslim community center in a former coat warehouse some blocks away from WTC. This isnt even talking about the Orange County incident. This isnt even talking about Pastor Terry. These are your elected or presumptive representatives, acting like jackasses, demonizing Muslims.
I think Pakistani-Americans need to worry about where they live, not countries thousands of miles away where they happen to have a genetic link to.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
It seems like this gora is more likely an indian?
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Ravage, I never stated America was immune from anti-Muslim bigotry at all.
All I stated is that there is a claim among Pakistanis in the U.S. that America is a evil nation and is somehow oppressive and continues to wage a war on Islam. And again, let's be realistic: it's safer to be a Muslim in America than to be a Christian in either Pakistan or Iraq. That's a fact.
And if Pakistanis in the U.S. are upset over discrimination, perhaps if they were far more vocal in any reports of terrorist plots involving Pakistani-Americans as was the case in Times Square and D.C. instead of engaging in the usual conspiracy rhetoric that has become a common theme lately, the discrimination would cease to exist. Hate to say it, but Pakistani-Americans should do more in order to improve their image. I don't see Westerners wanting to go to Pakistan, but India instead, to give an example.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
It seems like this gora is more likely an indian?
The rest of the world has a far better image of India than of Pakistan. That's a reality, and I don't really care for India much but I must give credit where it's due. Is that a problem where the only course of accusation you have would be that somehow they are all Indian?
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Because you give the typical Peter King line of do more. Do you know that more than 50% of the terror plots being caught have been because of muslim support? Go look up that fact now.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Ravage, I never stated America was immune from anti-Muslim bigotry at all.
All I stated is that there is a claim among Pakistanis in the U.S. that America is a evil nation and is somehow oppressive and continues to wage a war on Islam. And again, let's be realistic: it's safer to be a Muslim in America than to be a Christian in either Pakistan or Iraq. That's a fact.
Why is the last sentence relevant? Strikes me as what Southern segregationists used to say about blacks in America... its much better to be black in America as a slave than to be a black in Africa. Why is this comparison justified?
Lets remember that even if the US is not an evil nation, much of the havoc that is happening in the Muslim world seems to have a US presence. Lets remember that while 3000 of yours died on 9/11, 30,000 of ours in Pakistan have died since you decided that it was 'better to fight them over there instead of fighting them over here'. Why is it better to fight them 'over there'? Possibly because of all the sht that gets stirred when American invades a country doesnt have to wash onto your land but ours.
You mourn over your 3000 every ****ing year. You have demonized every Muslim since then unless he or she is a 'moderate' Muslim. And our deaths are just a matter of course. They happen because we deserve it. They happen because we are on the wrong side. 30,000 have died in Pakistan since the american invasion of Afghanistan. As much as I hate the Taliban (and you can go through my posts on this forum to see how often I have argued against Taliban, and how often I have argued with those who lay all the blame of the Taliban on American actions) lets remember that your country has foisted onto us a war we did not ask for, continues to engage in geo-political douchebaggery that results in many 9/11s over and over, and it has absolutely NO resonance in the American conscience because its OK for a president to say that we fight them over 'there' because we dont want to fight them here. Because lives dont count over there for you. When you live in a world where American lives are also described as collateral damage, then talk to us about what is good and what is evil.
[quote]
And if Pakistanis in the U.S. are upset over discrimination, perhaps if they were far more vocal in any reports of terrorist plots involving Pakistani-Americans as was the case in Times Square and D.C. instead of engaging in the usual conspiracy rhetoric that has become a common theme lately, the discrimination would cease to exist. Hate to say it, but Pakistani-Americans should do more in order to improve their image. I don't see Westerners wanting to go to Pakistan, but India instead, to give an example.
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So, specifically, what would you have them do. And you didnt engage with my the criticism of this argument anyway. Why is this collectivism exclusive to Muslims? Why arent whites expected to answer for the acts of KKK? Why is the continued existence of KKK not constantly reminded to whites, and why are whites not held to be by default KKK unless they actively assert that they are not?
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Why is the last sentence relevant? Strikes me as what Southern segregationists used to say about blacks in America... its much better to be black in America as a slave than to be a black in Africa. Why is this comparison justified?
Because in America, justice is often served whenever anti-Muslim crimes occur. The Muslim cabbie that got stabbed and nearly was murdered by a fat white boy, he got the book thrown at him. The 12 year old Muslim girl that was assaulted by another 12 year old in Queens? Arrested and serving time in juvie right now.
Do such forms of justice exist for minority groups in Pakistan? A country that claims to be an Islamic republic? At least I am aware that in an Islamic state, minority groups are to be protected but does that really exist over there? I hear Pakistani Americans always bringing up how Islam is against oppression and protects minorities, but then the same clerics and mullahs that are supposed to be the shining examples of your faith having no problem whipping big crowds into a frenzy and murder Christians like in Gojra. Pakistani-Americans complain about drone attacks but say little about the deteriorating conditions for minority groups in their own country. You can't expect anyone to take their claims of "persecution" seriously when they won't comment on the worsening situation in their own country.
Apples to oranges my friend.
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Lets remember that even if the US is not an evil nation, much of the havoc that is happening in the Muslim world seems to have a US presence. Lets remember that while 3000 of yours died on 9/11, 30,000 of ours in Pakistan have died since you decided that it was 'better to fight them over there instead of fighting them over here'. Why is it better to fight them 'over there'? Possibly because of all the sht that gets stirred when American invades a country doesnt have to wash onto your land but ours.
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Simple, the Taliban were a byproduct of your own government in their insistence on having a puppet government to exert its influence in a neighboring country that was problematic for all of its neighbors. Also remember that 35,000 Hazaras were also brutally slaughtered by an entity that Pakistanis enthusiastically supported because they were seen as upholding God's will.
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You mourn over your 3000 every ****ing year. You have demonized every Muslim since then unless he or she is a 'moderate' Muslim. And our deaths are just a matter of course. They happen because we deserve it. They happen because we are on the wrong side. 30,000 have died in Pakistan since the american invasion of Afghanistan. As much as I hate the Taliban (and you can go through my posts on this forum to see how often I have argued against Taliban, and how often I have argued with those who lay all the blame of the Taliban on American actions) lets remember that your country has foisted onto us a war we did not ask for, continues to engage in geo-political douchebaggery that results in many 9/11s over and over, and it has absolutely NO resonance in the American conscience because its OK for a president to say that we fight them over 'there' because we dont want to fight them here.
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The American invasion would simply not have happened had the Taliban oblige, their failure to do so is rather self-explanatory.
A war that you did not ask for? Perhaps your government should not have backed militants when it was convenient for them in Kashmir and elsewhere. What will Pakistan do when even China will get fed up with Pakistan's inability to crush extremists that create problems for its Uighur minority?
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Because lives dont count over there for you. When you live in a world where American lives are also described as collateral damage, then talk to us about what is good and what is evil.
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Do Pakistanis themselves care for American and British lives? Would they be concerned if al-Qaeda was attacking them solely? If Pakistanis don't have a problem with the Taliban, then does this also mean they wouldn't have a problem with al-Qaeda setting up bases in Pakistan to bomb American and British cities? Look at the Times Square bomber and the London bombers. The former was trained in Pakistan while the latter's funerals in their birth country had thousands of attendees.
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So, specifically, what would you have them do. And you didnt engage with my the criticism of this argument anyway. Why is this collectivism exclusive to Muslims? Why arent whites expected to answer for the acts of KKK? Why is the continued existence of KKK not constantly reminded to whites, and why are whites not held to be by default KKK unless they actively assert that they are not?
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Collectivism is convenient for Muslims when it comes to citing how Muslims are suffering around the world, but somehow it's criticized by you for being exclusive to Muslims now? You can't have your cake and eat it.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Because in America, justice is often served whenever anti-Muslim crimes occur. The Muslim cabbie that got stabbed and nearly was murdered by a fat white boy, he got the book thrown at him. The 12 year old Muslim girl that was assaulted by another 12 year old in Queens? Arrested and serving time in juvie right now.
Do such forms of justice exist for minority groups in Pakistan? A country that claims to be an Islamic republic? At least I am aware that in an Islamic state, minority groups are to be protected but does that really exist over there? I hear Pakistani Americans always bringing up how Islam is against oppression and protects minorities, but then the same clerics and mullahs that are supposed to be the shining examples of your faith having no problem whipping big crowds into a frenzy and murder Christians like in Gojra. Pakistani-Americans complain about drone attacks but say little about the deteriorating conditions for minority groups in their own country. You can't expect anyone to take their claims of "persecution" seriously when they won't comment on the worsening situation in their own country.
Ah. So Pakistani-Americans "own country" is not the country they are citizens of now, but the country that they, or their parents or grandparents came from. I suppose you expect Irish Americans to expect a certain level of violence as the norm, since look at what the IRA was doing. Or the cast of Jersey Shore should expect to be treated in ways comparable to how the mafia treats its victims?
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Simple, the Taliban were a byproduct of your own government in their insistence on having a puppet government to exert its influence in a neighboring country that was problematic for all of its neighbors. Also remember that 35,000 Hazaras were also brutally slaughtered by an entity that Pakistanis enthusiastically supported because they were seen as upholding God's will.
The American invasion would simply not have happened had the Taliban oblige, their failure to do so is rather self-explanatory.
A war that you did not ask for? Perhaps your government should not have backed militants when it was convenient for them in Kashmir and elsewhere. What will Pakistan do when even China will get fed up with Pakistan's inability to crush extremists that create problems for its Uighur minority?
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Right.. the US had absolutely no role in creating the basket case that was Afghanistan right? If you wish to go down that road, settling blame is abitrary. Osama Bin Laden also gives his reasons for why Americans deserve to die based on American foreign policy, do you give that credence?
The 3,000 that died in WTC were innocent of any ****ty policy that the US has taken on. And the 30,000 that have died in our country are innocent of whatever policies Pakistan was taking on. You do not get to say they deserved to die.
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Do Pakistanis themselves care for American and British lives? Would they be concerned if al-Qaeda was attacking them solely? If Pakistanis don't have a problem with the Taliban, then does this also mean they wouldn't have a problem with al-Qaeda setting up bases in Pakistan to bomb American and British cities? Look at the Times Square bomber and the London bombers. The former was trained in Pakistan while the latter's funerals in their birth country had thousands of attendees.
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Firstly, every country cares about its own more than it does about others. But nobody has the right to write off another country's dead as par for the course. If Pakistanies did it, I would condemn that. At the moment, it is Americans who routinely dismiss non-American lives as collateral damage. At best you are drawing equivalence of a stated policy of your country, with the behaviour of extremists in our countries.
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Collectivism is convenient for Muslims when it comes to citing how Muslims are suffering around the world, but somehow it's criticized by you for being exclusive to Muslims now? You can't have your cake and eat it.
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Difference there is its voluntary. Some Muslim Americans choose to highlight how Muslims are suffering around the world. Most dont. Some Muslim Americans identify with the suffering of certain Muslims, they may not necessarily feel any kinship to Faisal Shehzad.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Good case!
Leave us alone, we don’t want to be friends with Americans, look what happened to the friends of America everywhere in the world… we just want to be our-selves… the day American stop interfering Pakistani Politics i.e. stop supporting the corrupt politicians and generals would be the day the anti-americanism would go low in Pakistan…
The question what any GORA of your kind should be asking that why there is no Anti-Japanism, Anti-Australianism, Anti-Frencshism or Anti-Germanisn in Pakistan??? why don’t Pakistani blame these countries as much as they blame US ??? i know anyone from US won’t understand this…
Pakistani-Americans, i don’t know if this is new terms, earlier they were known as Asian-Americans or something of that kind… but if Pakistani-Americans are that much concerned about Pakistan then they should atleast do the same their counter-parts Indian-American (borrowing your term) are doing… now don’t ask me what they are doing.. just check for yourself…
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
the ruin is due to American policy in the region beginning from the so called jehad against the Russians in 1979
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
So were Taliban moral equivalent of America’s founding fathers…
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
Talk of the image the ‘rest of the world’ has.. lets remember that for most of the last decade, America has been regarded as thebiggest threat to world peace (higher than Iran getting nukes etc) by the rest of the world. For american goras the rest of the world is basically themselves.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
**Too late. Three decades ago, a dictator sold motherland to Sam by getting $5 billions in proxy war fighting for Sam in Afghanistan, created all kinds of demons and jehadis. Later another dicator sold his soul to Sam by making u-turn to prolong his illegal power. When your military say no to American aid, things will turn around and perhaps at that time Sam may leave you alone. But you know that this is not going to happen. So be contended the way Sam treat you.
**
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
**Too late. Three decades ago, a dictator sold motherland to Sam by getting $5 billions in proxy war fighting for Sam in Afghanistan, created all kinds of demons and jehadis. Later another dicator sold his soul to Sam by making u-turn to prolong his illegal power. When your military say no to American aid, things will turn around and perhaps at that time Sam may leave you alone. But you know that this is not going to happen. So be contended the way Sam treat you.
**
It look like that heirs of bhutto are following or may be trying to beat the record set by Zia ul Haq
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
It look like that heirs of bhutto are following or may be trying to beat the record set by Zia ul Haq
No, successors of moron Zia-ul-Haq are trying to beat this moron's record for fighting again a proxy war aginst jehadis in search of dollars.
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
^^ and i thought Zardari was successor of BHutto's legacy
Re: The Economist: A Great deal of ruin
^^ and i thought Zardari was successor of BHutto's legacy
Well your thoughts are mostly wrong, there is nothing new about them.