the definition of a muslim, and the self-contradictary case against the ahmadis

Here is how different scholars defined a “muslim”, while being questioned by justice muneer, in the 1953 case against ahmadis:

================== part 1, the definition ==========

-) maulana abu-ul-hasnaat mohammad ahmed qadri:
" should believe on
(1) oneness of god,
(2) mohammad’s prophethood,
(3) accept mohammad as the last prophet,
(4)believes that koran was revealed from allah thru prophet mohammad,
(5) should accept the orders given by prophet mohammad, and
(6) believe in the doomsday."

( maulana sahab has not told us what verses of koran he used to make this definition. also note that he did not mention
(a) beleif in ALL divine books,
(b) beleif in ALL prophets,
(c) beleif in the angels.

  • jewels)

-) maulana ahmed ali saheb, ( jamiat ulma-e-islam )

“if someone
(1) believes in the koran
(2) hadith of prophet mohammad
then he is a muslim, even if he does not believe in anything else.”

( maulana sahab, have just cleaned off ALL other aspects of islamic faith. -jewels)

-) maulana ( so called )“abu-ul-ala”, modoodi:

“the one who believes in
(1) oneness of allah,
(2) believes in ALL prophets,
(3) believes in ALL divine books,
(4) believes in angels, and
(5) believes in the doomsday,
is a muslim.”

( note that this definition does not hold ANY valid point to call ahmadis as nonmuslims. -jewels)

question: " is this all enough for being called a muslim?"

reply: “yes!”

question: " if someone believes in all five of these points, does someone have a right to call him a non muslim? "

reply: “no! but anyone who does not accept these five values, is a non muslim”

( note that according to this statment of modoodi, the previous scholars i mentioned, become non muslims!!! -jewels)

-) ghazi siraajuddin:

" the one who says the kalima and follows prophet mohammad is a muslim!"

despite repeatedly being questioned, he said that anyone who does not FOLLOW mohammad in ALL walks of life is a nonmuslim.

-) mufti mohammad idrees ( jamia ashrafiya ):

he, after a long speech said,
" a muslim is the one who believes in all needs of the religion"

when questioned about those needs of religion, he replied, " they are so many, that it is almost impossible for me to tell all of them.

-) maulana ali kandhalwi:

he said that someone who "acts upon the needs of religion in the light of the sayings of prophet mohammad " is a muslim.

( note that he talked not about BELIEVES but about ACTING UPON the believes.)

question: " what are those needs of religion?"

answer: " the needs of religion are those needs which all muslims know, whether or not they are scholars!"

( as if this is all a JOKE! shame for the molvis! -jewels)

question: " please count us all those needs of religion."

answer: " i do not know! i am not capable of counting them all!"

( note what these molvis are saying. and keep in mind that they are the ones who are the CREAM of the anti-ahmadiyya agitation! - jewels)

-) maulana mohammad ahsen islaahi:

" there are two types of muslims

  1. true muslims
  2. political muslims

political muslims should believe in:

  1. oneness of allah,
  2. the finality of prophethood
  3. all good and bad is from allah
  4. the “aakhirat”
  5. koran as the last book
  6. hajj
  7. zakaat
  8. namaaz
  9. the other laws of islamic society
  10. fasting

( maulana sahab has eaten up the belief in angels, or probabaly didnt feel it necessary! - jewels)

question: " do we only have to BELIEVE in them?"

answer " yes, mere BELEIF in them is enough for being a political muslim. those who act upon them are “true muslims”.

======================= part 2, the law =================

once this had taken place, it must be noted that after that

  1. there has been no new divine book
  2. there has been no change in the koran
  3. there has been no new hadith discovered

but still, the final definition of a muslim made in 1974 was made of two parts:

  1. the muslim should believe in the kalima
  2. the muslim must not believe in any promised messiah ( i.e. mirza ghulam ahmad sahab of qadian)

it is thus clear to any neutral reader about the whole conspiracy. this definition clearly tells us of the political game that was played by the molvis, in the name of religion!

============================== part 3, self-contradiction ===========

in this law, no ahmadi is allowed to say the kalima, because this will mean he is pretending to be a muslim!

( ina lillahe wa inna ilaihe rajeoon! -jewels)

any ahmadi who says the kalima, (if not killed by the local molvi), will be punished for three years in jail, and a heavy fine.

the question is,

HOW is saying the kalima, pretending to be a muslim?

the translate a muslim as the one who

  1. says the kalima
  2. disbelieves in mirza ghulam ahmad.

so in order to pretend to be a muslim, an ahmadi has to fulfill BOTH the above points! it is their own opinion that saying of kalima is NOT enough for being a muslim! a muslim must deny mirza ghulam ahmad too! so if an ahmadi says a kalima but DOES NOT deny mirza ghulam ahmad, how can they say he is pretending to be a muslim?

thus making a law, that saying the kalima is similar to being a muslim, they themselves have made it clear, that KALIMA alone is the definition of a muslim!

so this law contradicts itself!


So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. ‘O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.’ How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,’ A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

Saray molvi jhootay hein. They not only say us kaafir but also say kaafir to each other. I read a small booklet in which they compiled the fatwaa of all muslim sects against all other sects that they are kaafir. What a pitty!


MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]       

Homepages
mirzayasir.paklinks.com
pafcollchaklala.paklinks.com
Homeopathy Message Board
This is a message board which I created. Here you can post your diseases along with your symptoms and get a homeopathic prescription in 2-3 days. Its Free! Its amazing! Try it.
http://mirzahomeomain.paklinks.com

Salam my insignificant jewel,
kaisay ho bahi, long time no see.. kabhi chitti likh deya kero haath nahin tootain gay.. acha?

well good work bro, big respect.. excellently penned ... its only these fanatic ullmas** who has polluted out society. well that’s the Prophecy of Rasool Allah(sa), that in the later days the worst ppl on earth will be the ulma of my ummah.

may Allah grant innocent Muslims enough wisdom to understand the truth.

Mirza Yazir, As far as these Fatwas of Kufr are concerned, Pakistani Government has recently announced that all who impose such kufr fatwas on others will be punished by law.

Well lets see where this snow ball lands.

have fun and keep it up.

significantly yours,

Zalim

[email protected]

**** E R R A T U M **
"Maulvi" is very honored and pious rank, over here by maulvis I mean the people who abuse this seat. (appology)

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited April 07, 1999).]

jalim babu!

likhay jo khut tujhay,
woh teree yaad main,
hazaron rung kay.....!

albatta yeh "molvi" ka lafaz ziada na bolain. aik shikayat aayee hai!

"Jewels of Insignificance
No offence intended, but it seems to me that its highly inappropriate and unbecoming to use the word "Molvi" in such a derogatory manner. If we have a valid and legitimate argument, we must, to all extents, try to refrain from name-calling. After all what does it really acheive?. Also, if we think for a second, all the denominations in Islam have an equivalent of the term "Molvi" and usually they are referred to as "Ulema". Granted, we all have differences of opinion, which are largely shaped by our experiences and culture, we must try to stay within the bounds of civilized norms and extend due respect to people wherever necessary. "

fatwa:
"aap dono nay "molvi" jaisa ganda lafaz moo say nikaala hai! aap dono kay nikaah toot gaye hain!"


So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

"aap donon kay nikaah" ????????

I didn't know you two guys were married to each other :) And talking about that in a religious forum.. toba toba

Here is another contradiction:

Some individuals claim that other's beliefs are "insane and irrational" when they do not conform with their own. Yet they are quick to uphold the rights of their own, when they are labelled "insane and irrational" by the "moulvis", for following a certain spiritual leader.

Ironic isn't it?

Achtung ;)

dear achtung,

it is a human right, to think and to claim, that those view which are different from ours, are "insane and irrational".

however, what we are trying to prove in this thread is , there must be a TWO_WAY TRAFFIC!

movlis can call us "insane and irrational" and they do that! we on the other hand, are sentenced for life, or killed ( article 295 C constituition of pakistan) for doing the same!

yeh zulm nahee hai to aur kya hai?

Some people complained that we shouldn’t used the word “molvi” instead they suggested that word “ulema” should be used. Probably they don’t know that Hazoor SAW said that “ulema” in this time would be the worst creatures on the face of earth. Hazoor said “ulama-o-hom shar-o man thata adeem-is-samaa-i” (Mishqat kitab-ul-ilm fasl-ul salis pg.38


MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]       

Homepages
mirzayasir.paklinks.com
pafcollchaklala.paklinks.com
Homeopathy Message Board
This is a message board which I created. Here you can post your diseases along with your symptoms and get a homeopathic prescription in 2-3 days. Its Free! Its amazing! Try it.
http://mirzahomeomain.paklinks.com

Yes Jewels, I agree with you, the treatment of minorities in Pakistan (and elsewhere in the world for that matter) is deplorable. There is definately a difference between critically discussing discrepancies in different interpretations of Islam and being intolerant to differing theories to the extent of calling for the murder of those who are "different".

Ahmadies deserve the right to practice their religion. In Islam, there is no compulsion in matters of religion. Discussions regarding the strength of religious interpretations should take place with civility and respect.

My point was simply, that although your remarks were not calling for the death of others, they were intolerant to others views nonetheless. In my expierences, I too disagree with people, I even think often that they are "insane and irrational" - but I try not to speak my thoughts loudly, in order to avoid insulting and hurting others.

Achtung ;)

dear achtung,

if you are bound to discuss my personal rudeness in this essay and associate it to ahmadiyyat, and make it a reason for ahmadis being called non muslims, without reading what this thread was meant fr, and what i wrote in my essay, then i personally think that would be very unfair of you.

relating the essay for which i used the words
1) insane
i didnt particularly choose this word, but rather said, " no sane person can believe in this essay " a sane person is:

"Having or showing sound judgment; reasonable. (Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.)

2) irrational:

this was used as, " please be rational" . which is NOT in any way comparable to calling someone irrational!
a rational person is:

" 1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior."

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

now if i find an essay which gives no reason for what it tells, i would rather feel free to call it "irrational" and "insane". take them in the literal sense!

i qadeer,

3) Molvi:

i repeatedly use this term, which means
mullah

"mullah also mulla (mùl´e, m¢l´e) noun
Islam.
1.A male religious teacher or leader.
2.Used as a form of address for such a man.

[Urdu mullâ, from Persian, from Arabic mawlâ, master.]
- mul´lahism noun"

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

now tell me what is so bad about using this term?


So be on watch for a day when heaven shall bring a manifest smoke
covering the people; this is a painful chastisement. 'O our lord remove thou from us, the chastisement; we are believers.' How should they have the reminder? seeing a clear Messenger has already come to them, then they turned away from him, and said,' A man, tutored, possessed!"
( the koran, verse 11-14, chapter 44, Smoke, the nuclear explosion.)

I just found it ironic that a person who in one thread was calling for and promoting greater tolerance for differing religious interpretations of Islam. Would in another thread, label all who believe in a different interpretation from his own, irrational and insane.

The antonymn for sane is insane, for rational it is irrational. By stating that any person who believes in a particular line of thinking (in this case an essay quoted by Abdullah) cannot be classified sane or rational - you are in affect labelling them irrational and insane.

I never associated any of this with Ahmadi's being Muslim or non-Muslim. Jewels, re-read my post above. I agree with you in this post. I just thought your comments in another post were contradictory to the comments you were making here.

Achtung ;)

dear friend,

someone posts an essay. i give strong reasons why it is not valid. you people plainly refuse to talk about reasoning and logic~

the only phrase in english which may define such a behaviour is "irrational behaviour". correct me if i'm wrong!

as for making personal atacks, you will certainly get more chances to do that. this point is weak! try finding a stronger excuse to degrade my personality.