The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

[BOY-NICE]

salam…

@Ibn_Sadique

**BOY-NICE **- Salaams – So you agree to the fact that you have to consult the Ulema (Scholars) for guidance or to ‘know the issues’.

Isn’t that exactly what the Sunnis do – consult the scholars to answer their queries – which the learned scholars refer to Quran and Hadith.

And you as a Shia do not have services of Imams as the Shias did in the time of ‘present Imams’.

No there is a big difference what Sunnies do and what we Shias ‘of the present age’ do. We do consult the ulema but having faith in the existence of Imam on earth while Sunnies dont. Again, the main difference comes in the sources from where ulema derive the things, as you mentioned only Quran and Hadith while we our ulema consult to the text of the Imams of Ahlulbayt [as] too. Thus, both things can never be comapred.

You have mentioned Al-Kafi which you have agreed had the seal of approval of the Hidden Imam himself.

And the Shia narrations state that: “He was the one who named it “Al-Kafi” (meaning “sufficient”) by saying, as reported by al-Khwansari in “Rawdat al-Jannat” (vol.6, p.116): “hadha kafin li-shi‘atina” (This is sufficient for our Shia).”

I am sure the Imam had gone the whole book before giving his seal of approval.

But guess what about 600 years later Prominent Shia Scholar declares 64% (two thirds) of Al-Kafi not to be Sahih.

Imam never said the whole book is “sahih” or each and every thing init is absolutely authentic, thats your personal interpretation to that. The book was referred to Kafi i.e. ‘sufficient’ and I dont think any dictionary in the world would have synonym of word ‘sufficient’ as ‘authentic’ . So you are really mixing two things up.

Also there is a major controversy among the 12er Shias and that is the Concept of wilayat-ul-faqih (guardianship of the jurist) many Shias Scholars approve of it and many more including many prominent ones (Ayatullahs) strongly disapprove and some have also imprisoned on the orders of Ayatullahs.

That again is open to criticim, its like “Ahle Sunnah wal Jamat” divided into Ahle Hadith who would only follow Hadith while on the other hand we have Hanafi Sunnies etc, who would to Taqleed. So both the parties will be bringing their arguments to back up their ideology.

This has nothing to do with 12er Shia version of Imam Mahdi (ra).

The Sunni have the concept of Imam Mahdi but it does not fit with what Shias believe to be Imam Mahdi (ra).

He is yet to be born.

I never claimed any such thing in my post, my point was to point out that having aqeedah of the existence of Hujutullah on earth is not exclusive to the Shias but Sunnies also believe in it.

Strange! The Prophet (saw) would have at least mentioned him at once. He never did.

Now I dont really think that Prophet [s] should have worried about someone in our age calling His [s] stance to be ‘strange’. Why really he should have mentioned it, any good reason? And if you are uneasy with the stance of Prophet [s] for not letting you know the name of an individual then you or for that matter anyone here can also bring a number of objections over Holy Prophet [s] for not letting us know various other names. So I dont think your objection is logical.

The Prophet (saw) never met Hatim Tai but praised him for his wisdom but never did care to mention the Imam before him!!?? He would have if the concept of Imamate was valid.

I am not aware of any such thing [about Hatim Tai] but even if that is true, then Prophet [s] didnt mention various other pious saints this earth has seen, that doesnt mean they never existed. Moreover, your conjecture [on Shia belief of Imamate] that just because prophet didnt mention the names of the Hujjahs before him while he mentioned those to come after him will negate the whole concept of Imamate as null and void, is totally your personal view which to me is quite illogical. To us, Prophet [s] mentioned the source of guidance after Him [s] and that is sufficient for us, we are not concerned with the names of those Hujjahs who came before Prophet [s], because that will backfire on you as well, because as you know we being a Muslim have to have faith in all of the prophets and we cannot reject any of the prophet Allah has ever sent on earth, but do we know names of each and every prophet? Hope that clarifies the question.

Sunnis do not believe in Imamate and concept of Imamate is not supported by Quran.

Sunnis believe in Prophethood.

And the immediate Prophet before Rasool Allah (saw) was Prophet Issa (as).

That has nothing to do with our discussion here, what you are saying is well known stance of Ahe Sunah which Shias obviously do not agree to. So this ‘statement’ from your side wasnt really worthed.

This is what the Quran states Hz. Issa (as) will say to Allah (swt) when questioned if he taught his followers the concept of Trinity

"I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.’ I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things. [5:117]

Did not Hz. Issa (as) foretold his followers the coming of the next imam.

And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One (Ahmed). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic. [61:6]

And, the one before Hz. Issa (as) should be Yahya ibn Zakariya (as) [John the Baptist]

I thank you for your response

What you are doing is mere interpretation of the verses. If my memory serves me, then what I had read long time back [since its been a long time that I have just stopped reading books etc] then there were some disciples of Isa [as], they might have been the Hujutullahs of their respective time, because as I said, it really doesnt matter if we do not know the names of the each and every Hujutullah and for that matter each and ever Prophet this earth has seen [remember there were 124000 prophjets].